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Old 07.05.2020, 13:20
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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Good-o. I will stick around a bit longer myself as I don't like the sweeping generalization that people who earn 150k a year are privileged.
No it is your whole "I work hard thus I am entitled to 150K" attitude, many people work harder and sweat much more than 99,99% of the developers and are nowhere near such salary, I don't see developers leaving the office all tired and filthy like many people who only earn a 3rd of that do. And your argument as for demand is also rubbish, for years there is a huge shortage of proper electricians and other professions in construction work and industry, yet those people will never in their life make it up to 150K
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Old 07.05.2020, 13:20
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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Same goes for example for electricians, how many do you know that earn anything close to 150K

Becoming a developer is actually one of few professions that can be fully self-taught without the need of any professional education.
Why be an electrician when you can be a programmer? If you have the ability to do both, choose the one where you maximize the return. If not, at least don't complain.
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Old 07.05.2020, 13:29
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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Sorry, I did not have my "careful of fragile egos" editor mode on. Nowhere did I say that developers are not those things. Should have said "equally qualified, capable, hard-working special little unicorns". Come on, it is patently clear that I am not attacking developers, but having a pop at the sort of person that thinks a top 5-10% salary is "a dead end". That is privilege.
@Kittster: it's funny that you were triggered by the 150K income instead of looking at the message in the text: "I'm a cool developer, managers are square. If I want to earn more I have to become a boring manager". This is the point of OP, stay as a cool developer that may be fired one day because his job can be made by someone cheaper or go into boring management where he'd be less vulnerable to outsourcing? This can happen to anyone, regardless of income, privilege or whatever.

@OP: we all have to do some hours of management per week. It's cool to gain experience, but that experience must be put to work in management. Otherwise, managers are people from business or political science which have no f****** idea of how things work. I'd frame the situation on the following way: once you have 10 years of experience, who do you prefer to be in a management position? You or the guy from political science with an MBA? Management is not a dead end, it's natural evolution in the workplace.
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Old 07.05.2020, 13:29
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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Why be an electrician when you can be a programmer? If you have the ability to do both, choose the one where you maximize the return. If not, at least don't complain.
Because many people when they decided on a profession they did it in a time where becoming a programmer hardly was a thing. And once one has a family with kids to take care of it is not just a case of "study and switch profession" when you're sort of locked in in a profession that earns 5 to 6K a month with full working weeks. Nowadays and over the last yrs becoming a developer is easy, there are educations and employment everywhere, and studying on university level has become available for many more people that it was in like the 80's.

You speak with an easiness about such things that makes me wonder if you've even have any clue at all what lives a lot of people have, it's like you live in your own bubble and the world outside is just a blur.

And I never complained about the salary of an electrician, I make complaint about the reasons you think you earn more than twice of what they earn. And yes that sounds like entitlement to me.
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Old 07.05.2020, 13:29
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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Offshoring, especially to India, is not done for or measured by getting capable and hard-working staff
It's just cost per resource. Because, in management eyes, all IT workers are equal. So why pay 150K when you can pay 10K a year?

150K? INKSPE.
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Old 07.05.2020, 13:36
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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It's just cost per resource. Because, in management eyes, all IT workers are equal. So why pay 150K when you can pay 10K a year?

150K? INKSPE.
Everlasting game, manager one gets a bonus for cutting costs and switches company, manager two gets a bonus for pulling the work back and making sure products are better and ready in time with much less aftercare, after some time another manager comes with an idea to cut costs...

I once worked on shipyards, I still recall how happy management was to cut costs and have casco build ships from Roemenia, and also how sad they looked when their shipyard was empty and 300 people had no work since building the casco's had a 3 months delay due to bad welding and not being able to get certificates to have insurance to bring the Ship to the Netherlands.
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Old 07.05.2020, 13:38
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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Why be an electrician when you can be a programmer? If you have the ability to do both, choose the one where you maximize the return. If not, at least don't complain.
Because if we all just do what makes the most money rather than what we are most capable at and gives our lives or those of others some meaning, we would all be crying about nonexistent hospitals, potholes in the roads, empty bakeries etc.

As for rich hating - I live in an apartment that belongs to my dad. He owns two further properties. Although being brainwashed into thinking I did not deserve to earn more than I did for many years means I am not wealthy myself, on the contrary, I am still privileged as heck. Right now, I am redistributing my salary to others instead of saving towards a car or some other material thing. It gives me more pleasure to know that I can help others put food on their table rather than me owning another object I don't actually need. And I am doing that at half the salary he describes as "dead end".

To still have that mindset in the current situation when we have a rather unpleasant economic future ahead of us is odd to me. I don't really care what the actual profession is, being in a certain wealth category or even a certain skin colour or nationality makes you privileged.

By the way, I completed a degree while also working at a Big 4. Just because my compass is not set due big bucks does not mean I lack ambition or drive.

Last edited by Kittster; 07.05.2020 at 13:50.
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Old 07.05.2020, 13:49
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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As for rich hating - I live in an apartment that belongs to my dad. He owns two further properties. While being brainwashed into thinking I did not deserve to earn more than I did for many years means I am not wealthy myself, on the contrary, I am privileged as heck. Right now, I am redistributing my salary to others instead of saving towards a car or some other material thing. It gives me more pleasure to know that I can help others put food on their table rather than me owning another object I don't actually need. And I am doing that at half the salary he describes as "dead end".
But this means you are paying rent-free which puts you at an advantage of around 2500 CHF against people who pay rent. In addition you know you will inherit 3 properties or part of them which gives you security. Most other people do not have that and have to work hard and aim higher to make sure they are not hung out to dry when they reach mid-50s and end up unemployed.
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  #29  
Old 07.05.2020, 13:51
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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No it is your whole "I work hard thus I am entitled to 150K" attitude, many people work harder and sweat much more than 99,99% of the developers and are nowhere near such salary, I don't see developers leaving the office all tired and filthy like many people who only earn a 3rd of that do. And your argument as for demand is also rubbish, for years there is a huge shortage of proper electricians and other professions in construction work and industry, yet those people will never in their life make it up to 150K
You can rage all you want about whether salary should be related to the amount you are sweating at the end of the day, but its not the way the market works. The market will pay what it has to for a given skill: its why top footballers earn fortunes while lower leagues earn peanuts.

The salary for a good developer is driven by this and as is being pointed out, now that globalization is taking force they are rapidly coming down as the work can be done for a tenth of the price from offshore (not a threat faced by electricians, of course). There is no entitlement here, skiled professionals are all in the same game, gaining the skills needed which will maximize their value to the business. Automatically lowering the salary of one profession and raising the other so that everyone is equal is just a move towards the far left and it doesnt really work.
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Old 07.05.2020, 13:54
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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But this means you are paying rent-free which puts you at an advantage of around 2500 CHF against people who pay rent. In addition you know you will inherit 3 properties or part of them which gives you security. Most other people do not have that and have to work hard and aim higher to make sure they are not hung out to dry when they reach mid-50s and end up unemployed.
No, I pay the mortgage, which is quite high because a certain someone decided to take a ten year mortgage before prices went down; against my advice to wait. No advantage, just the benefit of living in a nicer place than I would have ever been able to afford myself and not risk of my landlord randomly deciding to increase the rent or kick me out. However, if the washing machine or anything else like that breaks, I pay for the repair or replacement. Also, I share the flat with someone because I could not afford it on my own.

And I did acknowledge that I am privileged, not sure what your point is here?
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Old 07.05.2020, 13:57
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

The OP had another famous thread where he was looking for ways of making it big in CH. So it sounds in the end he is most concerned about money but I will answer his question anyway.

Unless it is a company's core business, software development/IT is seen as a cost and the people doing this are seen as expendable. Managers think they can give the job to anyone and it will get done whether they are on-site and are invested in the company or not. In some cases it gets done but in others they will need to hire more and more people to fix problems cheap developers caused not to mention all the know-how draining out of the company.

Add to this the fact that anyone can become a software developer without formal certification unlike an architect, an electrician or even a chimney sweep and the salaries are bound to go down.

Last edited by DerDieDas; 07.05.2020 at 16:49. Reason: Punctuation
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Old 07.05.2020, 13:58
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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Because if we all just do what makes the most money rather than what we are most capable at and gives our lives or those of others some meaning, we would all be crying about nonexistent hospitals, potholes in the roads, empty bakeries etc.
If there were no hospitals, bakers and potholes in the road, the demand (and salary) for people who could supply these would go up, so attracting people to these professions.

The idea we all just work our bit for society and share the proceeds equally is absolutely fantastic and very noble, but it really tends to reach is successful boundaries in things like small religious groups or commune's. Once its applied to wider society it always fractures due to the natural drive of humans to achieve themselves.
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Old 07.05.2020, 13:59
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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No, I pay the mortgage, which is quite high because a certain someone decided to take a ten year mortgage before prices went down; against my advice to wait. No advantage, just the benefit of living in a nicer place than I would have ever been able to afford myself and not risk of my landlord randomly deciding to increase the rent or kick me out. However, if the washing machine or anything else like that breaks, I pay for the repair or replacement. Also, I share the flat with someone because I could not afford it on my own.

And I did acknowledge that I am privileged, not sure what your point is here?
My point is you know you are set up for life and are criticizing people who have to start from nowhere and keep on going because there are no guarantees.

Edit: On second thoughts, actually, you probably did not mean that but to some people it can read like that.
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Old 07.05.2020, 13:59
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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No, I pay the mortgage, which is quite high because a certain someone decided to take a ten year mortgage before prices went down; against my advice to wait. No advantage, just the benefit of living in a nicer place than I would have ever been able to afford myself and not risk of my landlord randomly deciding to increase the rent or kick me out. However, if the washing machine or anything else like that breaks, I pay for the repair or replacement. Also, I share the flat with someone because I could not afford it on my own.

And I did acknowledge that I am privileged, not sure what your point is here?
Do they have middling options here for mortgages?

If not clear what I mean here some random numbers.

let's say 5 yrs left at 6%
signing for 10 yrs would now be 1.0%
Thus you would extend now for 10yrs and get 3,5%
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Old 07.05.2020, 14:03
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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Do they have middling options here for mortgages?

If not clear what I mean here some random numbers.

let's say 5 yrs left at 6%
signing for 10 yrs would now be 1.0%
Thus you would extend now for 10yrs and get 3,5%
This is the mother of all thread-derailments!
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  #36  
Old 07.05.2020, 14:04
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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If there were no hospitals, bakers and potholes in the road, the demand (and salary) for people who could supply these would go up, so attracting people to these professions.
And this is hardly true or only to some extend. Huge shortages in many professions, yet only in some the salary's went up largely. What is more important is what customers are willing to pay, and where customers are willing to pay higher amounts over the last decade for a proper working back-end, Customers are not willing to pay much more to have a factory build, they simply say it is to expensive to build something and cancel the plans.
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Old 07.05.2020, 14:06
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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Because if we all just do what makes the most money rather than what we are most capable at and gives our lives or those of others some meaning, we would all be crying about nonexistent hospitals, potholes in the roads, empty bakeries etc.

As for rich hating - I live in an apartment that belongs to my dad. He owns two further properties. Although being brainwashed into thinking I did not deserve to earn more than I did for many years means I am not wealthy myself, on the contrary, I am still privileged as heck. Right now, I am redistributing my salary to others instead of saving towards a car or some other material thing. It gives me more pleasure to know that I can help others put food on their table rather than me owning another object I don't actually need. And I am doing that at half the salary he describes as "dead end".

To still have that mindset in the current situation when we have a rather unpleasant economic future ahead of us is odd to me. I don't really care what the actual profession is, being in a certain wealth category or even a certain skin colour or nationality makes you privileged.

By the way, I completed a degree while also working at a Big 4. Just because my compass is not set due big bucks does not mean I lack ambition or drive.
Well, this is called thread hijacking.

Some talks about job security and money......then it becomes something about morals, meaning or whatever. Enjoy the rest of your newly hijacked thread.
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Old 07.05.2020, 14:11
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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You can rage all you want about whether salary should be related to the amount you are sweating at the end of the day, but its not the way the market works. The market will pay what it has to for a given skill: its why top footballers earn fortunes while lower leagues earn peanuts.

The salary for a good developer is driven by this and as is being pointed out, now that globalization is taking force they are rapidly coming down as the work can be done for a tenth of the price from offshore (not a threat faced by electricians, of course). There is no entitlement here, skiled professionals are all in the same game, gaining the skills needed which will maximize their value to the business. Automatically lowering the salary of one profession and raising the other so that everyone is equal is just a move towards the far left and it doesnt really work.
I don't think anyone is saying that you should lower the salary of one profession to benefit the other, but when I see people with very well paid jobs complaining about it being too expensive to properly employ a cleaner in this country, it does make me want to wring their necks! If everyone makes a decent living, a country is a nicer place to live. And if everyone redistributes their wealth a bit more than especially the richest are doing now, there would be far fewer problems in the world.

So if developers can just self train, there are essentially no entry barriers, right? Many years ago, I translated a diploma thesis for a lady who was paying her way through university by working as a prostitute. She did it out of her own free will and seemed to enjoy herself. Translating this thesis was a pretty lengthy project and we met several times to discuss it and prepare for her defense of the thesis, so I got quite a bit of insight into her business.

This project coincided with the time when more non-EU women started coming to Switzerland to work in the trade - it immediately affected prices and client expectations. When I first met her, the going rate was about 500 per hour, a year later it had gone down to 400 and from what I hear it is now 250. If there is more competition, you either have to be better in terms of what you deliver or join the price cut war. She stopped working in the business and returned to her original profession in healthcare.

And before you go completely ballistic because you think I am comparing you to a prostitute - your supply and demand view is correct, however, it won't always work in your favour as you can control neither of those things, other by constantly making sure you do something that is in short supply or high demand. Ideally both, then you can set your price.
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  #39  
Old 07.05.2020, 15:35
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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I don't think anyone is saying that you should lower the salary of one profession to benefit the other, but when I see people with very well paid jobs complaining about it being too expensive to properly employ a cleaner in this country, it does make me want to wring their necks! If everyone makes a decent living, a country is a nicer place to live. And if everyone redistributes their wealth a bit more than especially the richest are doing now, there would be far fewer problems in the world.

So if developers can just self train, there are essentially no entry barriers, right? Many years ago, I translated a diploma thesis for a lady who was paying her way through university by working as a prostitute. She did it out of her own free will and seemed to enjoy herself. Translating this thesis was a pretty lengthy project and we met several times to discuss it and prepare for her defense of the thesis, so I got quite a bit of insight into her business.

This project coincided with the time when more non-EU women started coming to Switzerland to work in the trade - it immediately affected prices and client expectations. When I first met her, the going rate was about 500 per hour, a year later it had gone down to 400 and from what I hear it is now 250. If there is more competition, you either have to be better in terms of what you deliver or join the price cut war. She stopped working in the business and returned to her original profession in healthcare.

And before you go completely ballistic because you think I am comparing you to a prostitute - your supply and demand view is correct, however, it won't always work in your favour as you can control neither of those things, other by constantly making sure you do something that is in short supply or high demand. Ideally both, then you can set your price.
I agree with your points. I completely agree that salary and behaviour are separate. rich people complaining about cleaner prices winds me up just as much. I think the way you act is separate from what you earn, this is clear.

In terms of the flooded prostitution market, this is a perfect example of what i mean - your friend was previously a senior developer in essence, earning 500 an hour. Then the profession became flooded with globalization and an influx of workers, thus lowering the value the market was prepared to pay, so she has to either come up with new prostitute skills which will make her stand out or she loses her place in the market to a cheaper foreign import. Exactly the same as what this chap here is worried about. I do doubt however that you scalded her during her time working the streets that she should remember she is privileged to earn 500 an hour.
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Old 07.05.2020, 16:30
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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I can't take threads about how earning almost twice what the average Swiss person earns is a dead end seriously. Check your privilege.
Great inputs here, thanks!
These kind of jobs are very demanding and once your 40 you start getting discriminated. So earnings need to be high. Also this is one of the highest paying fields and countries in the world, so it has to be high. Not to mention basic swiss living expense are high. I myself feel like i'm working 24/7 to keep up with the market. I'm worried that it's mainly the superrich that benefit from the economies development since life quality has not change much since our parents time, but the rich has gotten alot richer. We all have good conditions i won't complain but i suspect i could be a whole other level of greatness if the superrich didn't have to stockpile 80% of the world capital.

I just see the gap between rich(1mio) and superrich(100mio) is getting very large. And it seems to be on the "expense of" the rich(1mio) and below. I like the trend the techjobs really has created some wealth distribution but not disturbing to see this falling down. I Assume all we can do as many of you mention is to focus getting top skills in high demand field.

But my main point this threat is an 20year+ developer will get the same as a basic dev that goes into management. It seems very distorted to me, but maybe the path i would have to take because the longterm benefits are so big versus actual coding.

Conclusion: Management is likely the best longterm path a swiss. The super-rich are not planning on paying anyone more unless the absolutely have to. The gap between super-rich and rich will keep growing to the extreme side. Life quality will slowly go up, especially for the superrich. Try to make a business in a new industry not already dominated by the superrich.

Hope the discussions can continue, and we can have a constructive conclusion.

For the hijackers: Take this as a lesson on how the capitalistic economy works. I'm trying to get something out of the super rich because i know these companies can afford it. I'm worried all this ruthless cost cutting mainly benefit the superrich (major shareholder in fortune500 companies) and that the money is not getting distributed to the people that deserve it. Highly skilled hardworking people that create the things we all like to use. Let focus on how all can get better pay than that the privileged should just shut it. The super rich are the unfairly privileged(inheritance) i would understand you could have a grudge on. If the superrich redistribute better you will likely become privileged as well. Anyone from Switzerland is very privilege, let's hope it stays that way. I won't talk more about that

Last edited by timpeterson; 07.05.2020 at 18:26.
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