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  #41  
Old 07.05.2020, 17:01
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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I do doubt however that you scalded her during her time working the streets that she should remember she is privileged to earn 500 an hour.
She was not on the streets, one of the big advantages of prostitution being legal. Of those 500, she had to give 40% to the place where she worked. Social security, putting money by for sick leave and holidays were also all on her tab, so she was not making 500 per hour anyway.

I am not scolding anyone for making a lot of money (except maybe those who get far more than they deserve without taking ANY personal financial risk), what I am scolding them for is not realising that it IS a lot of money. And, in this case, for thinking they should earn that much (or rather - more!) without assuming a managerial role. By the way, as someone else pointed out, the OP is not a stranger, his entitled attitude has shown up before, which is partly why I tore into him.
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  #42  
Old 07.05.2020, 17:39
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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Because many people when they decided on a profession they did it in a time where becoming a programmer hardly was a thing. And once one has a family with kids to take care of it is not just a case of "study and switch profession" when you're sort of locked in in a profession that earns 5 to 6K a month with full working weeks. Nowadays and over the last yrs becoming a developer is easy, there are educations and employment everywhere, and studying on university level has become available for many more people that it was in like the 80's.

You speak with an easiness about such things that makes me wonder if you've even have any clue at all what lives a lot of people have, it's like you live in your own bubble and the world outside is just a blur.

And I never complained about the salary of an electrician, I make complaint about the reasons you think you earn more than twice of what they earn. And yes that sounds like entitlement to me.
If you say becoming a developer is easy why stay an electrician. Something is missing here.

And yes I am extremely entitled to reap the rewards of my decisions and work.

Everyone lives in a bubble, just the size of the bubble and the blur you mentioned is different.
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  #43  
Old 07.05.2020, 18:48
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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If you say becoming a developer is easy why stay an electrician. Something is missing here.
Yeah you realising that I said something about having a family with kids.
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  #44  
Old 07.05.2020, 19:18
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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So developers are not "qualified, capable, hardworking people ?", they are just "privileged" according to you.

If you are a qualified, capable and hard working person and want to earn a developer salary, then become a developer - work in the evening (as many developers do) or learn at the weekend (as many developers do).

Or alternatively, don't work, do enjoy the weekends and make sure you spend it complaining just how privileged developers are and how unfair it is.
Learning something else in the evenings and on the weekends is what many other people also do, including me. It is just a necessity to stay competitive, don't sell this as a sacrifice only developers put up.

P.S. Seriously, complaining that a specialist role without leadership responsibility is capped at 150 is something new even for this forum.
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  #45  
Old 07.05.2020, 19:26
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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don't sell this as a sacrifice only developers put up.
I'm a developer. And a contractor. I've never* learned a new skill unless being paid.



* OK, 2 or 3 times, but it was because I was interested.
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  #46  
Old 07.05.2020, 20:13
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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Yeah you realising that I said something about having a family with kids.
In this case your motivation should increase by a lot. Even if you are not motivated by money, you would more than double your wage and could work only half of the time making more money as developer than as electrician. The extra time would be for your family.
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  #47  
Old 07.05.2020, 21:59
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

TLDR. Can someone sum it up for me: can a developer only make 150k or is there a chance for a decent salary? But please without any pesky responsibility like managing people...
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  #48  
Old 08.05.2020, 07:09
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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TLDR. Can someone sum it up for me: can a developer only make 150k or is there a chance for a decent salary? But please without any pesky responsibility like managing people...
Yes, it is possible to make more than 150k depending on which company, project and position one is working. Sometimes pesky managers earn less than a good developer. Some companies value more engineering skills than blah blah blah skills.

You asked "can".

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So developers are not "qualified, capable, hardworking people ?", they are just "privileged" according to you.

If you are a qualified, capable and hard working person and want to earn a developer salary, then become a developer - work in the evening (as many developers do) or learn at the weekend (as many developers do).

Or alternatively, don't work, do enjoy the weekends and make sure you spend it complaining just how privileged developers are and how unfair it is.


There was a saying about grapes being sour.....

But you know - I don't like maths. Physics and chemistry and pretty muck all them science classes were such a big waste of time for me but I want I want I want a big salary now.
Classic. Developers are doing something something at their computers and are "self-taught". Haven't you heard this one? I did.

Last edited by greenmount; 08.05.2020 at 07:20.
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  #49  
Old 08.05.2020, 08:29
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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Physics and chemistry and pretty muck all them science classes were such a big waste of time for me but I want I want I want a big salary now
Become a real estate agent !
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  #50  
Old 08.05.2020, 08:39
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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TLDR. Can someone sum it up for me: can a developer only make 150k or is there a chance for a decent salary? But please without any pesky responsibility like managing people...
Only at Google


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Also this is one of the highest paying fields and countries in the world, so it has to be high.
Big tech companies in US tech hubs pays way more today. Of which there's basically only Google here.
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  #51  
Old 08.05.2020, 08:45
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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Become a real estate agent !
I think your advice is wrong because you know....corona or post-corona crisis.

Btw, I didn't ask for advice here, was just a way to describe how people think about developers and their "privileges".
I'm living in this world and know it quite well. There are developers and developers. Some seem to believe there are only cheap imports in CH....well, let them believe that while others are busily upgrading their skills on top of their hard earned degrees in the field.
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  #52  
Old 08.05.2020, 10:55
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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Only at Google



Big tech companies in US tech hubs pays way more today. Of which there's basically only Google here.
But that doesn't help. Look at silicon valley, everyone earns 200k. Meaning rent and house prices skyrocket. So with your 200k, after cost of living, you're still poor.
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  #53  
Old 08.05.2020, 11:31
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

another wibbly wobbly thread that's veered off into salaries and living costs

to the OP, I'd say the answer is 'mostly yes', i work in a multinational and i can tell you that almost all 'day to day coding' is done in eastern europe and asia

but.. there are roles here in IT architecture, business/requirements analysis and very specialised ML/AI areas (PhD required)

but.. yep.. if a functional spec can be met with a load of python/SAP whatever/webwhatever it goes 'abroad'
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  #54  
Old 08.05.2020, 16:05
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Only at Google

Big tech companies in US tech hubs pays way more today. Of which there's basically only Google here.
Entrylevel at google is 120k so you quickly get at 200k. But of course you have to be the 1% Check out https://www.levels.fyi/

Hijackers: I'm not entitled just making sure i'm improving my situation as much as i can. I know other jobs can be is has more value to society i wish they got more as well. Just not how it works in capitalistic economy. It's supply and demand. Adjusting to demand should get rewarded, and in most cases it does.

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But that doesn't help. Look at silicon valley, everyone earns 200k. Meaning rent and house prices skyrocket. So with your 200k, after cost of living, you're still poor.
I prefer having the option to save on housing. Move out on country side. Live in an mobilecamper etc.

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another wibbly wobbly thread that's veered off into salaries and living costs

to the OP, I'd say the answer is 'mostly yes', i work in a multinational and i can tell you that almost all 'day to day coding' is done in eastern europe and asia

but.. there are roles here in IT architecture, business/requirements analysis and very specialised ML/AI areas (PhD required)

but.. yep.. if a functional spec can be met with a load of python/SAP whatever/webwhatever it goes 'abroad'
Thanks for getting to the point In your case do the PhD work get near the 200k? I'm considering if the PhD is worth the major time effort vs an average dev going into management in multinationals.


Of course if you have a passion for a PhD it's not for the money, i get it. Most people just can't spend that much time on education and often above Bsc. does not pay vs working the right places. But i this thread is more about how to make the best money.

Last edited by MusicChick; 09.05.2020 at 17:30. Reason: merging consecutive posts
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  #55  
Old 08.05.2020, 17:09
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

Why concentrate on IT sector, other jobs pay nearly the same:



A handyman or gardener costs about CHF 90/hour.



https://www.oltnertagblatt.ch/soloth...unde-130273782


and you will get a trained body and a nice tan for free, so more chances with women...
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  #56  
Old 08.05.2020, 17:27
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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But that doesn't help. Look at silicon valley, everyone earns 200k. Meaning rent and house prices skyrocket. So with your 200k, after cost of living, you're still poor.
Not really. Most living costs are lower in the Valley. House prices just as expensive as in Zurich. Rents are more expensive, yes, by about 30-40%. As well as taxes - the CA state income tax in particular, whereas US federal tax is comparable to total Zurich taxes. But if you'd go to rainy Seattle instead of the sunshine state, you'd have similar taxes and rents as in Zurich.

Generally, if compensation increases by X%, costs increase by X%, your savings will *also* increase by X% all other things equal. And salaries/total compensation in the Valley in tech is higher than in Zurich by way more than just 30-40%. So it's still very much worth it to go there.


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Entrylevel at google is 120k so you quickly get at 200k. But of course you have to be the 1%
Also not really. This isn't the early 2000's, Google is a humongous multinational agglomerate, not the lean selectively hiring startup they once were. Today you just need to put in enough time to study for the algorithmic puzzles they ask at interviews. Which actually have little to do with day to day software engineering job, even at Google. Better do this instead of that PhD you're considering which is 90+% likely to be a waste of time.

Last edited by spark; 08.05.2020 at 17:49.
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  #57  
Old 08.05.2020, 18:19
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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Also not really. This isn't the early 2000's, Google is a humongous multinational agglomerate, not the lean selectively hiring startup they once were. Today you just need to put in enough time to study for the algorithmic puzzles they ask at interviews. Which actually have little to do with day to day software engineering job, even at Google. Better do this instead of that PhD you're considering which is 90+% likely to be a waste of time.

I wish I spent 3.5 years learning how to code and doing algorithmic puzzles instead of doing a PhD. On the other hand, I wouldn't have gotten to Switzerland in the first place if I did. Time to code.
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Old 08.05.2020, 18:49
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

PhD waste of time? why? an academic career might be interesting also from a financial point of view:



check this:


https://www.swissuniversities.ch/fil...innen._def.pdf
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  #59  
Old 08.05.2020, 19:19
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

And this: https://ethz.ch/en/the-eth-zurich/po...n-figures.html

You have to pretty damn smart AND very lucky AND work hard for many years to get a professorship. From 2017 to 2018 ETHZ added just 5 professors and the total headcount - about 500 - is 10x smaller than Google Zurich.

And then you have to be *extremely* lucky to get tenure and reach that 280k maximum. Whereas in the Bay this is just a mid-level SWE package at FAANG. Which doesn't even require any formal degree today. Not even a BSc, "equivalent experience" will do.

Here in Google Zurich the pay is less than in the Bay, so that'd be more like a senior level SWE pay, 2 promotions, maybe 5 or so years to get that. About the time to complete a PhD which is just a very first step in your academic career. Now consider the opportunity costs: while you were starving on ramen during your PhD studies, your peers at FAANGs probably made their first million and are much further ahead of you in their careers (Google hires fresh PhDs at mid level.)

Last edited by spark; 08.05.2020 at 19:33.
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Old 08.05.2020, 19:55
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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....
but.. yep.. if a functional spec can be met with a load of python/SAP whatever/webwhatever it goes 'abroad'
Not all of it. The difficult bits that I do (for example) stay onshore.

Programming is programming. The language is largely immaterial. Some of it is akin to brick laying - that can be offshored. The elegant architecture on the other hand...
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