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  #61  
Old 08.05.2020, 20:14
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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PhD waste of time? why? an academic career might be interesting also from a financial point of view:

check this:

https://www.swissuniversities.ch/fil...innen._def.pdf
To become a prof, you not only need to suffer 3-5 years through a PhD, then you need to do a couple of postdocs, preferably in the US, which pay somewhere around 60-90k, then get lucky to be tenured, or spend more time as staff scientist and only a little percentage make it to the tenured prof, aged mid 30s in the best case (ETH likes this particularly), aged 40sh+ more likely. Putting so much effort in these 10-15 most productive years of your life will bring you much higher with higher likelihood of success and with more money on the way.

Long story short, you have to be very passionate about science to choose the prof. path, it is mostly a sacrifice on the way there with little guarantee of success.
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  #62  
Old 08.05.2020, 21:08
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Why concentrate on IT sector, other jobs pay nearly the same:



A handyman or gardener costs about CHF 90/hour.



https://www.oltnertagblatt.ch/soloth...unde-130273782


and you will get a trained body and a nice tan for free, so more chances with women...
Thats what the company selling him gets, he probably get a 20-30 an hour. But if you can prove me wrong i would consider a career change for some years. Getting stiff from so much sitting.

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PhD waste of time? why? an academic career might be interesting also from a financial point of view:

check this:

https://www.swissuniversities.ch/fil...innen._def.pdf
Ok not too bad, didn't actually know they were that high. I guess that would be worth it, how is the competition for these professor jobs? I've heard it's very hard to get them since alot of the truly passionate & people that have a hard time in corporate world (alot of people) wants these jobs.

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And this: https://ethz.ch/en/the-eth-zurich/po...n-figures.html

You have to pretty damn smart AND very lucky AND work hard for many years to get a professorship. From 2017 to 2018 ETHZ added just 5 professors and the total headcount - about 500 - is 10x smaller than Google Zurich.

And then you have to be *extremely* lucky to get tenure and reach that 280k maximum. Whereas in the Bay this is just a mid-level SWE package at FAANG. Which doesn't even require any formal degree today. Not even a BSc, "equivalent experience" will do.

Here in Google Zurich the pay is less than in the Bay, so that'd be more like a senior level SWE pay, 2 promotions, maybe 5 or so years to get that. About the time to complete a PhD which is just a very first step in your academic career. Now consider the opportunity costs: while you were starving on ramen during your PhD studies, your peers at FAANGs probably made their first million and are much further ahead of you in their careers (Google hires fresh PhDs at mid level.)
Very good point! Completely agree. Smart people should know this.

Last edited by MusicChick; 09.05.2020 at 17:28. Reason: merging consecutive posts
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  #63  
Old 09.05.2020, 10:51
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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Thanks for getting to the point In your case do the PhD work get near the 200k? I'm considering if the PhD is worth the major time effort vs an average dev going into management in multinationals.
Ha... no

That's a manager of a team of PhDs

Last edited by MusicChick; 09.05.2020 at 17:23. Reason: fixed quote
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  #64  
Old 09.05.2020, 13:14
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

Some guys here talking about getting a quarter milliion per year meanwhile, from data consolidated from friends:
before university: 50k per year
fresh after university, about 70k per year
and then if you work hard, and show your worth, after 5-10 years you can get up to 100k, 110k tops.
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  #65  
Old 09.05.2020, 13:32
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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Some guys here talking about getting a quarter milliion per year
Like I said, that money is pretty much only possible at Google here in Switzerland.

The rest of the companies paying this good are located in SF, NYC and Seattle. Maybe also Chicago and London for the HFT variety, not generic software engineering.


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meanwhile, from data consolidated from friends:
Sample bias. If you had friends from poor asian or african countries, even $10k / year might be the most they've ever seen. And if all your friends were silicon valley bros, you'd feel like a loser for clearing less than 300k a year.

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  #66  
Old 09.05.2020, 14:46
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Some guys here talking about getting a quarter milliion per year meanwhile, from data consolidated from friends:
before university: 50k per year
fresh after university, about 70k per year
and then if you work hard, and show your worth, after 5-10 years you can get up to 100k, 110k tops.
You if you work for small mediocre companies. But the if you do contracting for multinationals, have an edge and have some negotiation skills you can push it up. Though as always the basic default jobs all from a Bsc in computercience can do for small/midsize companies unfortunately won't get much higher than 110k. The funny thing is often when you work those midisize companies they ofter resell your skills at x2-3 to multinationals and collect your potential profit Too many middlemen lately.

I with out a doubt understand people from low paying countries with a PHD and 20years experience are happy to work in Switzerland for 50k a year. Good for you is all i can say and good for the guy that hires you. I just see a large swiss middle class which are the driving wheels of our society will have to pay for this by lowering rates.

Anyone aware of some software development unions in Switzerland that help protect these jobs? I think developers would be in a strong position if they unionize more. By the people for the people

If we don't unionize you can be sure the large companies will do and already are doing it. Eventually that middle class will pay for the party as always And the super rich will benefit hugely.

I was just seeing a jobpost the other day from Glencore they only pay senior software developers 100k while making a netincome last year of 1.5 billion. Can this really be true that such rich companies can get away with paying the same as small/midsize companies the regularly consider turning the keys. Seems distorted to me. If this is the reality anyone have a suggestions how we can improve this and not just bendover and hope for the best.

I'm afraid a nice swiss version of this will happen: American Factory Netflix - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m36QeKOJ2Fc
Documentary how local population workforce gets replaced by people at 1/3 the price. In this case globalization reduced their lifequality eventhough we have has a technology revolution.

Last edited by MusicChick; 09.05.2020 at 17:28. Reason: merging consecutive posts
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  #67  
Old 09.05.2020, 16:54
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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I with out a doubt understand people from low paying countries with a PHD and 20years experience are happy to work in Switzerland for 50k a year. Good for you is all i can say and good for the guy that hires you. I just see a large swiss middle class which are the driving wheels of our society will have to pay for this by lowering rates.

Anyone aware of some software development unions in Switzerland that help protect these jobs? I think developers would be in a strong position if they unionize more. By the people for the people

If we don't unionize you can be sure the large companies will do and already are doing it. Eventually that middle class will pay for the party as always And the super rich will benefit hugely.

I was just seeing a jobpost the other day from Glencore they only pay senior software developers 100k while making a netincome last year of 1.5 billion. Can this really be true that such rich companies can get away with paying the same as small/midsize companies the regularly consider turning the keys. Seems distorted to me. If this is the reality anyone have a suggestions how we can improve this and not just bendover and hope for the best.

I'm afraid a nice swiss version of this will happen: American Factory Netflix - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m36QeKOJ2Fc
Documentary how local population workforce gets replaced by people at 1/3 the price. In this case globalization reduced their lifequality eventhough we have has a technology revolution.
Didn´t you ask in another thread how to make it big in Zurich? Definitely not by creating a union.

And yes, companies get away with lower salaries as there are enough people willing to work for that amount. Market = demand and supply.
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  #68  
Old 09.05.2020, 17:01
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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If we don't unionize you can be sure the large companies will do and already are doing it. Eventually that middle class will pay for the party as always And the super rich will benefit hugely.
Unions are great at making sure that people who excel at their work get little to no extra pay above those that are average.
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Old 09.05.2020, 17:19
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Most people would be thrilled to make that much. Qualified, capable, hard-working people.
OP was not asking about most people. But I think this got most probably covered in the thread in the meantime.

Not sure why people get so worked up about other people thinking their skills deserve good salary.

Most people would give god-knows-what to be able to live in their dad's apartment, rent free. Even if they still did not manage to save anything, the security of not being possibly evicted is enough, for most I know.

Funny reactions here.

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Ha... no

That's a manager of a team of PhDs
Naw, not always.

There is no direct link from a PhD to promotion or more money.

I would also suggest OP to not consider PhD as a cash making strategy, especially in CH. Salary is just a bonus and not an automatic one. Plus profs that one needs to get into a good program can sense an opportunist from the doorway.
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Last edited by MusicChick; 09.05.2020 at 21:50.
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Old 09.05.2020, 17:53
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

With my paper round I am able to support my family, go on extended holidays to balconia, eat finely cooked meals at Le Salon and still have change for chips on the way home.

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I can't take threads about how earning almost twice what the average Swiss person earns is a dead end seriously. Check your privilege.
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Old 09.05.2020, 18:11
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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With my paper round I am able to support my family, go on extended holidays to balconia, eat finely cooked meals at Le Salon and still have change for chips on the way home.
You know, we were never banned from leaving our homes...just sayin'.

I do see people people from our windows, showing up for VIP job interviews. So the hiring process did not freeze per se, OP. The force majeure some companies are giving out to people as excuses might be just a polite way of saying no. It is good our OP is doing a bit of research, checking out the market, etc.
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  #72  
Old 09.05.2020, 19:55
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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Unions are great at making sure that people who excel at their work get little to no extra pay above those that are average.
Check out Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy. Eventually, the union will exist to promote and protect itself, not the people it purports to work for.
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Old 09.05.2020, 20:04
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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Check out Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy. Eventually, the union will exist to promote and protect itself, not the people it purports to work for.
Oh yeah, I'm aware of that.

Unions have become companies of their own with their own interests, strikes, talks etc.. are just methods to sell their one and only product which is memberships. I absolutely loathe them, showing up in their 80K leasecar to give a speech of 3 minutes about how important local markets are and hand-out some in china produced caps and shirts to disappear again.
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  #74  
Old 09.05.2020, 20:26
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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Most people would give good knows what to be able to live in their dad's apartment, rent free. Even if they still did not manage to save anything, the security of not being possibly evicted is enough, for most I know.
As I mentioned here and elsewhere - I pay the mortgage and any other costs. Very few people in this country fully own their place in terms of having paid off the entire cost. I'm surprised you don't know that, seeing as you present yourself as so knowledgeable on almost everything.

Also, my dad is quite mercurial, if I did something that hacked him off, he may kick me out just to make a point. He once didn't speak to me for five years because I didn't hand in my geometry homework on time when I was 15.

But let's not veer further off topic just because you could - once again - not resist having a dig at me.
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Old 09.05.2020, 20:44
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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Oh yeah, I'm aware of that.

Unions have become companies of their own with their own interests, strikes, talks etc.. are just methods to sell their one and only product which is memberships. I absolutely loathe them, showing up in their 80K leasecar to give a speech of 3 minutes about how important local markets are and hand-out some in china produced caps and shirts to disappear again.
They can be very important in some sectors though, like education or health care.



For the IT sector? Naaah.

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I with out a doubt understand people from low paying countries with a PHD and 20years experience are happy to work in Switzerland for 50k a year. Good for you is all i can say and good for the guy that hires you. I just see a large swiss middle class which are the driving wheels of our society will have to pay for this by lowering rates.
.
You're far from reality with your estimations though. No-one with that experience and degree works for 50k in Switzerland.

Seriously, check your numbers from more reliable sources than EF. Seriously.

Last edited by greenmount; 09.05.2020 at 20:54.
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  #76  
Old 09.05.2020, 23:08
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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They can be very important in some sectors though, like education or health care.

For the IT sector? Naaah.

You're far from reality with your estimations though. No-one with that experience and degree works for 50k in Switzerland.

Seriously, check your numbers from more reliable sources than EF. Seriously.
I'm hiring them myself, and thats the rates they would be happy to accept. Of course multinations have to get close to normal swiss rates (80k) if they move here. But most companies will let them work remotely and pay them half of that instead. (again i completely understand them) I just consider if development earning potential for westeners is moving towards management/architecture which i think we can clearly conclude by now.
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Old 10.05.2020, 00:54
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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I'm hiring them myself, and thats the rates they would be happy to accept. Of course multinations have to get close to normal swiss rates (80k) if they move here. But most companies will let them work remotely and pay them half of that instead. (again i completely understand them) I just consider if development earning potential for westeners is moving towards management/architecture which i think we can clearly conclude by now.
Yeah. That's not what you said in a previous post. Whatevs. Have fun.
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  #78  
Old 11.05.2020, 09:34
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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Not really. Most living costs are lower in the Valley. House prices just as expensive as in Zurich. Rents are more expensive, yes, by about 30-40%. As well as taxes - the CA state income tax in particular, whereas US federal tax is comparable to total Zurich taxes. But if you'd go to rainy Seattle instead of the sunshine state, you'd have similar taxes and rents as in Zurich.

Generally, if compensation increases by X%, costs increase by X%, your savings will *also* increase by X% all other things equal. And salaries/total compensation in the Valley in tech is higher than in Zurich by way more than just 30-40%. So it's still very much worth it to go there.




....
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...

Here in Google Zurich the pay is less than in the Bay, so that'd be more like a senior level SWE pay, 2 promotions, maybe 5 or so years to get that. About the time to complete a PhD which is just a very first step in your academic career. Now consider the opportunity costs: while you were starving on ramen during your PhD studies, your peers at FAANGs probably made their first million and are much further ahead of you in their careers (Google hires fresh PhDs at mid level.)
You can not compare the quality of life in the Bay Area to Zürich. Yes, you earn more, but:
- you most probably need to send your kids to private school since the public schools are..
- think about collage costs
- your kids will not be able to walk to school
- you see deep poverty all around you (no amount of money can save you from that, and poverty is omnipresent in California)
- close to no public transport - traffic, especially east bay is horrible. Try going from e.g. SSF to Santa Clara in rush hour..
- you may loose your job from one day the other with close to zero social net.
- TRUMP would be your president.
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Old 11.05.2020, 10:03
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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Some guys here talking about getting a quarter milliion per year meanwhile, from data consolidated from friends:
before university: 50k per year
fresh after university, about 70k per year
and then if you work hard, and show your worth, after 5-10 years you can get up to 100k, 110k tops.
110k "tops" after 5-10 years, wtf are you talking about? Many skilled and experienced devs get over 110k in multinational companies.

It's not a "standard" salary but it's definitely achievable to get more than 110k at a senior level without getting into management.

Last edited by Chuff; 11.05.2020 at 10:26.
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Old 11.05.2020, 10:09
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Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

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110k "tops" after 5-10 years, wtf are you talking about? Many skilled and experienced devs get over 110k in many multinational companies.
What, Chuff? You're contesting the data presented on EF?
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