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-   -   Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing? (https://www.englishforum.ch/employment/297979-being-developer-dead-end-switzerland-due-outsourcing.html)

timpeterson 07.05.2020 02:24

Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?
 
Is software-development (being an actual developer coding) a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?
I see most of all the large companies have 50-80% easteuropean and indian workers that are very capable and hard working. They can get top skilled workforce that are happy to work at low swiss rates.

I see developer salaries are steadily dropping and big scale outsourcing is getting more normal. Are we as swiss residence in some way forced to go into management if we want i high engineering salary?
I see people with 20y experience are capped at max 150k/y. I understand swiss companies will do this and i would probalby do the same if i had a large company. I'm not trying to complain about it, just wanna face the facts if this career is a dead end.

I like development but feel like the gap between management and development is getting bigger and bigger. Expectation for a good rate is growing and 2-3 positions gets merged to 1. Like you have to be super human is a swiss resident. If they can't find a 3in1 candidate it gets outsourced.

What you guys think, you have a similar experience and what do you think the future of software development will be? Am i right or missing something?

(Please exclude outliers like Google, Facebook and other abnormal high paying tech-product companies that appreciate developers - even these guys are moving things east)

bigblue2 07.05.2020 08:50

Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?
 
No

NotAllThere 07.05.2020 10:18

Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by timpeterson (Post 3179519)
Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?

Yes it is. Seek alternative employment immediately!*




* That's one less competitor.

amogles 07.05.2020 10:20

Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?
 
150K is not a bad salary on Switzerland. We had many threads on this before. A lot of expats totally overestimate what everybody else is earning. 150K is a very good salary and many people with good skills and high work morale never get anywhere near that .

I agree that there is outsourcing of jobs and there are contractors from low cost countries But there are also still people doing well as programmers over here and not all work can easily or reasonably be outsourced .

If you have the right skills and keep them up to date employers will be screaming for you to come and work for them.

BasP72 07.05.2020 10:30

Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 3179568)
If you have the right skills and keep them up to date employers will be screaming for you to come and work for them.

Unfortunately though this does not lead to higher salaries... is cartel forming legal with this respect ?

Axa 07.05.2020 10:35

Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?
 
IF changing from code development to management and earn more is possible, well.......it's not a dead end because the opportunity to grow is there as you presented it. Choosing to take the opportunity or let it pass is a whole different topic.

k_and_e 07.05.2020 10:49

Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?
 
Make sure that you have some additional skills, like actually understanding the business, communication skills and knowledge of the local language. That gives you some competitive advantage.

Kittster 07.05.2020 11:30

Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?
 
I can't take threads about how earning almost twice what the average Swiss person earns is a dead end seriously. Check your privilege.

Mikers 07.05.2020 12:02

Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kittster (Post 3179606)
I can't take threads about how earning almost twice what the average Swiss person earns is a dead end seriously. Check your privilege.

Why, what has it got to do with privilege ? Developers don't normally get given programming skills, they spend many many days, weeks, months and years learning them.

bonaire 07.05.2020 12:22

Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?
 
I would think that any industry has a ceiling in earnings if you aren't willing to eventually go into management (or if super good, consulting).:dunno:

Kittster 07.05.2020 12:35

Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikers (Post 3179630)
Why, what has it got to do with privilege ? Developers don't normally get given programming skills, they spend many many days, weeks, months and years learning them.

A dead end is not being able to provide for a normal life or having a job you hate with not options to change easily. Sure, if you want an Aston Martin and a villa in Herrliberg, that salary is not enough, but then he already presented the solution: work towards getting a leadership role. Most people would be thrilled to make that much. Qualified, capable, hard-working people.

poot 07.05.2020 12:46

Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by timpeterson (Post 3179519)
I see most of all the large companies have 50-80% easteuropean and indian workers that are very capable and hard working.


Offshoring, especially to India, is not done for or measured by getting capable and hard-working staff

Mikers 07.05.2020 13:23

Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kittster (Post 3179652)
A dead end is not being able to provide for a normal life or having a job you hate with not options to change easily. Sure, if you want an Aston Martin and a villa in Herrliberg, that salary is not enough, but then he already presented the solution: work towards getting a leadership role. Most people would be thrilled to make that much. Qualified, capable, hard-working people.

So developers are not "qualified, capable, hardworking people ?", they are just "privileged" according to you.

If you are a qualified, capable and hard working person and want to earn a developer salary, then become a developer - work in the evening (as many developers do) or learn at the weekend (as many developers do).

Or alternatively, don't work, do enjoy the weekends and make sure you spend it complaining just how privileged developers are and how unfair it is.

Kittster 07.05.2020 13:37

Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikers (Post 3179673)
So developers are not "qualified, capable, hardworking people ?", they are just "privileged" according to you.

If you are a qualified, capable and hard working person and want to earn a developer salary, then become a developer - work in the evening (as many developers do) or learn at the weekend (as many developers do).

Or alternatively, don't work, do enjoy the weekends and make sure you spend it complaining just how privileged developers are and how unfair it is.

Sorry, I did not have my "careful of fragile egos" editor mode on. Nowhere did I say that developers are not those things. Should have said "equally qualified, capable, hard-working special little unicorns". Come on, it is patently clear that I am not attacking developers, but having a pop at the sort of person that thinks a top 5-10% salary is "a dead end". That is privilege.

Guest 07.05.2020 13:44

Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikers (Post 3179630)
Why, what has it got to do with privilege ? Developers don't normally get given programming skills, they spend many many days, weeks, months and years learning them.

Same goes for example for electricians, how many do you know that earn anything close to 150K

Becoming a developer is actually one of few professions that can be fully self-taught without the need of any professional education.

Mikers 07.05.2020 13:57

Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kittster (Post 3179684)
Sorry, I did not have my "careful of fragile egos" editor mode on. Nowhere did I say that developers are not those things. Should have said "equally qualified, capable, hard-working special little unicorns". Come on, it is patently clear that I am not attacking developers, but having a pop at the sort of person that thinks a top 5-10% salary is "a dead end". That is privilege.

HI concern is that his job will be outsourced and the salary will drop and he will be less in demand which is a valid concern.

its just rich-hating when it comes down to it. Doesnt matter how hard people might have worked, what sacrifices they might have made, to get to the top of their profession, they are simply not allowed to talk about it because they will be promptly reminded that there are people on half their salary, or a quarter, or an eighth or be told to remember all the starving people in africa.

Privilege and hard work seem to be easily confused nowadays.

Mikers 07.05.2020 13:59

Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?
 
Quote:

Same goes for example for electricians, how many do you know that earn anything close to 150K

Becoming a developer is actually one of few professions that can be fully self-taught without the need of any professional education.
Ive no idea what electricians earn, the market decides the salary through demand. If they don't earn much and developers earn more and they want to earn more: retrain to become a developer.

Guest 07.05.2020 14:10

Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikers (Post 3179698)

Ive no idea what electricians earn, the market decides the salary through demand. If they don't earn much and developers earn more and they want to earn more: retrain to become a developer.

Your simplistic view is disturbing, I'm done with this "discussion"

Mikers 07.05.2020 14:15

Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?
 
Quote:

Your simplistic view is disturbing, I'm done with this "discussion"
Good-o. I will stick around a bit longer myself as I don't like the sweeping generalization that people who earn 150k a year are privileged.

mike_n 07.05.2020 14:18

Re: Is being a developer a dead end in Switzerland due to outsourcing?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kittster (Post 3179684)
Sorry, I did not have my "careful of fragile egos" editor mode on. Nowhere did I say that developers are not those things. Should have said "equally qualified, capable, hard-working special little unicorns". Come on, it is patently clear that I am not attacking developers, but having a pop at the sort of person that thinks a top 5-10% salary is "a dead end". That is privilege.

For some people it is a dead end, be it a top 5-10%. Even if 150k is a good salary and you could have a comfortable life, for a lot of us it's by far not good enough. Different people, different level of ambition and abilities.


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