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  #21  
Old 25.05.2020, 11:30
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

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I have 3 months leave, about 6 weeks of holiday left. I believe that if I donít accept the alternative offer then they will put me on gardening leave ie 3 months + 6 weeks holiday next week.
The holidays get included in the three months.

Tom
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  #22  
Old 25.05.2020, 11:34
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

Beobachter, a consumer magazine, makes these points about an employment contract change (translated):

"Employment contract amendment: What to do?
  • You can insist that the period of notice of the old contract is observed and that the changes only come into force after its expiry.
  • Protest in writing against an immediate or even retroactive contract amendment and insist that the period of notice be observed.
  • If the employer terminates the contract because you do not agree to an immediate contract amendment, this would be abusive - you could sue for compensation.
  • Lock-up periods in the event of illness, military service and pregnancy also apply to dismissals with notice of change
  • Get advice if your working conditions are to be massively worsened, even though there is no objective reason for this.
  • If you are dismissed because you have rejected the contract amendment, you can always go on unemployment compensation. If the unemployment insurance fund comes to the conclusion that the contract amendment was reasonable (zumutbar), it can reduce the daily allowance."
https://www.beobachter.ch/arbeit/arb...r-angestellten
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  #23  
Old 25.05.2020, 12:23
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

My personal story here.

I was once demoted. They restructured and the team that I managed was merged with another team and the manager of the other team got to manage the new larger group. So I went down a level to becoming a normal drone. Of course they explained to me that it was nothing to do with me personally bla bla but they had decided that this new structure would be more efficient and synergies and bla bla. And they promised that if another job opened that suited me I would get first choice and bla bla.

Of course I didn't believe a word of any of that.

I complained bitterly and in the end they agreed I could keep my base salary but I lost most of the fringe stuff so it was an effective pay cut but not as much as they had first wanted me to take.

Anyway, I accepted. Two years later they restructured again and went back to having two separate departments and, oh look, I was promoted back to my old job and got all the fringe benefits back and a bit more even.

So the moral of the story is, even if you think HR are lying through their teeth, sometimes they are not.
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  #24  
Old 25.05.2020, 16:20
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

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Wrong, it is the last 6 months (or 12 if that's to your advantage).

And it's the ALK that does the calculation and pays you, not the RAV.

Tom

that's right sorry I was wrong
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  #25  
Old 25.05.2020, 19:50
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

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My personal story here.

I was once demoted.
...
Anyway, I accepted. Two years later they restructured again and went back to having two separate departments and, oh look, I was promoted back to my old job and got all the fringe benefits back and a bit more even.
Out of curiosity, were you actively looking for jobs in this 2-year period and did not find anything better, or you just accepted the demotion and let it be as it is?
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  #26  
Old 25.05.2020, 20:01
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

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Out of curiosity, were you actively looking for jobs in this 2-year period and did not find anything better, or you just accepted the demotion and let it be as it is?
I did apply for a number of positions, but for that to qualify as actively looking I guess I should have applied for many more.
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  #27  
Old 26.05.2020, 11:32
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

You are as good as your last job. If you take the more junior role it you are in effect agreeing that you're not up to being a PM. They will fire in time, restructure, find a reason in time to let you go.

When they let you go, your reference letter will either say for more junior or you're a demoted manager.

Anybody you have upset during your tenture as a manager will take the opportunity to s**t on you.

Let them find a reason to let you go in your current role and start looking for a new job now.
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  #28  
Old 26.05.2020, 14:13
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

I couldn't bear the (perceived) humiliation of this so personally I would leave -- but not by voluntary resignation of course.

Given that you have holidays outstanding + a notice period, you could ask to be terminated now and have your holidays and notice paid up. If they want to keep you during your notice period, you'll have to work it. But I'd hope you'd still get your holidays paid up (but I don't think there's an obligation to do this above a certain level).

A very important point is that even if you have to work, say, 3 months notice, you must apply for jobs during this period (at least 8-10 per month normally, though this has been lowered slightly during the current period of job uncertainty). If you don't do this, the RAV will penalise you.

If you take the demotion and decide to leave some later in any case, your reference letter will no doubt prompt some questions about why you had to take a step down.

Also be aware that there is a ceiling on earnings used in RAV calculations. I'm not sure if 125K is above it but someone can confirm. In other words, make sure that your calculation is right. It may be 80% of a sum a bit lower than you think.

Good luck.
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  #29  
Old 26.05.2020, 14:33
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

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I couldn't bear the (perceived) humiliation of this so personally I would leave -- but not by voluntary resignation of course.

Given that you have holidays outstanding + a notice period, you could ask to be terminated now and have your holidays and notice paid up......
No need to ask for anything. OP refuses change of contract, so company has to terminate the old contract on the regular basis. OP does his normal job until he leaves - if they don't like it, they can send him on garden leave.

The directive "either you accept the new position or you resign" is nonsense (though the usual "trick" used). All OP has to do is say "no" to the new position. The rest is the company's job.
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  #30  
Old 27.05.2020, 10:09
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

Try to come to a nice agreement for you to leave, ideally with garden leave. Never ever resign yourself.
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  #31  
Old 27.05.2020, 11:12
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

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Try to come to a nice agreement for you to leave, ideally with garden leave. Never ever resign yourself.
And if you can manage it - get an agreement that should you find a job while on gardening leave, they'll pay the remainder in a lump sum. But you'll only get this if you've really got them over a barrel.
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  #32  
Old 27.05.2020, 11:23
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

How quickly can you find a new job? If you can get a new job within the notice period, then you can let them fire you.
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  #33  
Old 31.08.2020, 15:17
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

In the end.....Exited the company....All is well. Thanks for all your replies/support.
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  #34  
Old 28.09.2020, 11:25
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

thanks all for sharing your input / experience / advice.
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  #35  
Old 28.09.2020, 11:37
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

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thanks all for sharing your input / experience / advice.
can you share the payout package in any way? Are you planning the RAV/ From your story I would not have stayed - It would have been toxic and you would have been fired in the next round - The message was clear youhave to go
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  #36  
Old 28.09.2020, 16:57
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

3 months paid notice given (gardening leave) as per contract. Additionally, I had about 20 days leave remaining (Of course required to take this as part of the notice period.

So no package or anything of the sort. Of course, I could have made things difficult, go on sick leave etc. and squeeze some months out of them or a payout to walk..but then I need a reasonable reference from them and it isn't really my style.

The taking up of the lower position that was on the table was not an option unless its with a completely different division, team, and the lower salary offer on the table. I am better on RAV in that respect.

IF there was no RAV then I would have no choice but to accept the alternative especially in the middle of a pandemic.

Replacement has been sourced internally as there is a company freeze on hiring.

Very happy that I am out of the company to be honest, start fresh (Not ideal times) but I am getting interviews and hopefully some offers soon.
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  #37  
Old 28.09.2020, 17:29
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

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3 months paid notice given (gardening leave) as per contract. Additionally, I had about 20 days leave remaining (Of course required to take this as part of the notice period.

So no package or anything of the sort. Of course, I could have made things difficult, go on sick leave etc. and squeeze some months out of them or a payout to walk..but then I need a reasonable reference from them and it isn't really my style.

The taking up of the lower position that was on the table was not an option unless its with a completely different division, team, and the lower salary offer on the table. I am better on RAV in that respect.

IF there was no RAV then I would have no choice but to accept the alternative especially in the middle of a pandemic.

Replacement has been sourced internally as there is a company freeze on hiring.

Very happy that I am out of the company to be honest, start fresh (Not ideal times) but I am getting interviews and hopefully some offers soon.
Interesting to see if the company says you were offered another job when the fill in the RAV paperwork. There is a good chance you will get an additional 90 days punishment or possibly no RAV at all.
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  #38  
Old 28.09.2020, 17:35
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

Do they have to fill in a form - What benefit is it to them if they say that? They got rid of the employee so what are they going to gain from being involved

Personally I am suprised they have anything to do now he has left
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  #39  
Old 28.09.2020, 17:46
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

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Do they have to fill in a form - What benefit is it to them if they say that? They got rid of the employee so what are they going to gain from being involved

Personally I am suprised they have anything to do now he has left
They have to make various declarations & fill in a long form, 1 question being have they offered another job. Since false declaration is a criminal offence I suspect they will mention it.
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  #40  
Old 28.09.2020, 17:48
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

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Do they have to fill in a form - What benefit is it to them if they say that? They got rid of the employee so what are they going to gain from being involved

Personally I am suprised they have anything to do now he has left

The company must complete a form send to them by the RAV as to the circumstance for your departure. Getting shot of an employee is not particularly difficult so why would you expect people to lie for you?


If your employer believes you deliberately set out to be fired and achieved it could also end up there. And that could prove very expensive for the employee.
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