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  #41  
Old 28.09.2020, 17:58
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

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The company must complete a form send to them by the RAV as to the circumstance for your departure. Getting shot of an employee is not particularly difficult so why would you expect people to lie for you?


If your employer believes you deliberately set out to be fired and achieved it could also end up there. And that could prove very expensive for the employee.
Are you sure about that - You know better then I do that large companies are economical with the truth - You know when people are fired but get mentioned as left to take an opportunity outside the bank... Or retirement when he has been fired
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  #42  
Old 28.09.2020, 18:09
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

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Are you sure about that - You know better then I do that large companies are economical with the truth - You know when people are fired but get mentioned as left to take an opportunity outside the bank... Or retirement when he has been fired
The RAV form is a questionnaire of the circumstances, nothing to do with a reference. If they were getting another job or retiring then the RAV would not be involved. You must think the Swiss are a pushover.
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  #43  
Old 28.09.2020, 18:17
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

When I had an employee who I made redundant, the RAV didn't send me anything at all.
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  #44  
Old 28.09.2020, 22:52
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

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Are you sure about that - You know better then I do that large companies are economical with the truth - You know when people are fired but get mentioned as left to take an opportunity outside the bank... Or retirement when he has been fired

Yes I have seen it three times, that plus the confirmation of your salary details.
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  #45  
Old 29.09.2020, 07:59
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

Apologies I also wanted to ask a sort of similar question, another colleague of min ( we are both on fixed term contract) was offered a renewal at a lower job role/ rate, they are cutting like 30%, I suspect his salary was quite high but am not privi to such info. The guy has been working here for so many years, so he is entitled to RAV... so my question is, if he refused the lower paid/rate cut of 30% - obviously as he will get higher than that on the RAVE - he has family and kids, so he will get 80% of his salary from the RAV instead of 70% cut on his rate that he maybe stuck with for a while- in such case that he refused to renew his fixed term contract at the lower rate, then the contract ends at the expected original end date.... would this be viewed by the RAV as him resigning? i.e. he was offered an alternative role and rejected it ? Would he have the 90 days punishment so to speak?
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  #46  
Old 29.09.2020, 08:20
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

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Apologies I also wanted to ask a sort of similar question, another colleague of min ( we are both on fixed term contract) was offered a renewal at a lower job role/ rate, they are cutting like 30%, I suspect his salary was quite high but am not privi to such info. The guy has been working here for so many years, so he is entitled to RAV... so my question is, if he refused the lower paid/rate cut of 30% - obviously as he will get higher than that on the RAVE - he has family and kids, so he will get 80% of his salary from the RAV instead of 70% cut on his rate that he maybe stuck with for a while- in such case that he refused to renew his fixed term contract at the lower rate, then the contract ends at the expected original end date.... would this be viewed by the RAV as him resigning? i.e. he was offered an alternative role and rejected it ? Would he have the 90 days punishment so to speak?
Pretty sure the answer is yes. He's not been fired, has been offered another position which he's refused so effectively he's resigned.

Also bear in mind that there's an upper limit to RAV payments; if his salary is above that he wouldn't get 80% of his salary, but the upper limit calculation instead which may be worse than the 70% he rejected.
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  #47  
Old 29.09.2020, 08:34
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

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Pretty sure the answer is yes. He's not been fired, has been offered another position which he's refused so effectively he's resigned.

Also bear in mind that there's an upper limit to RAV payments; if his salary is above that he wouldn't get 80% of his salary, but the upper limit calculation instead which may be worse than the 70% he rejected.
hmmm that is strange re the fact he resigned, if someone was contracted to do a specific consultancy position, like manage a program, and they wanted an internal person to take over that role, then they said well we no longer need you to consult at this role, we want an internal person to take it on, but we think you are good / useful, could you take another consulting role at a cut... surely this becomes a new contract/job offer that is not related to his existing consulting job, and he has the right to decline it

My friend already made his calculations and he figured out he would be financially better off on the RAV than taking 30% cut. So he is within the upper limit.
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  #48  
Old 29.09.2020, 09:44
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

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Pretty sure the answer is yes. He's not been fired, has been offered another position which he's refused so effectively he's resigned.

Also bear in mind that there's an upper limit to RAV payments; if his salary is above that he wouldn't get 80% of his salary, but the upper limit calculation instead which may be worse than the 70% he rejected.
Hes been fired and rehired - Im pretty sure the answer is no - You cannot just reduce someones salary like that

Would be keen to know from someone who really does know
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  #49  
Old 29.09.2020, 09:47
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

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Hes been fired and rehired - Im pretty sure the answer is no - You cannot just reduce someones salary like that

Would be keen to know from someone who really does know

Are you saying that MF is telling lies?


If you do not accept a (reduced) job offer/change, you effectively have resigned.
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  #50  
Old 29.09.2020, 09:47
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

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Pretty sure the answer is yes. He's not been fired, has been offered another position which he's refused so effectively he's resigned.
I've of the opposite opinion. The other position must largely be on the same T&Cs. But until someone with actual legal knowledge or experience with the RAV for the same scenario, it's speculation.

These tactics are to get the employee to resign. They no longer want the employee; they just have to terminate without cause. I really don't know why employers do it (maybe they come from a culture where it's better to resign than "be fired" - or they don't want to feel bad 'cos they fired someone).

I'd suggest that anyone who is caught in the position have a chat with a lawyer for advice. It should only cost a few hundred - but could save a great deal.
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  #51  
Old 29.09.2020, 09:50
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

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Are you saying that MF is telling lies?
Suggesting MF is incorrect isn't the same as accusing her of telling lies, for goodness sake!
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If you do not accept a (reduced) job offer/change, you effectively have resigned.
Not according to the advice I received which when going through this. It is a termination of the contract of employment. You've been offered another job that happens to be with the same company, but you are free to reject it. Just as you don't have to accept every job offer when on the RAV. At least initially!
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  #52  
Old 30.09.2020, 13:56
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

I would say leave. It's hard but it isn't in the interests of your health to stay.

You're as good as your last position too with the next employer, so if you move out of a management position, then HR will draft you letter saying so.

RAV will pay 80% if you have kids for 18 months, if you're on B permit and comes up for renewal during that time I think it will be renewed, being on the RAV is the same as being employed, at least it used to be. (worth checking somehow).

If you take the cut, then they can just say you're not up to that job either in few months and let you go. You'll get less money on the RAV and a more junior reference letter from HR.

They don't like you, leave.
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  #53  
Old 30.09.2020, 14:17
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

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I would say leave. It's hard but it isn't in the interests of your health to stay.

You're as good as your last position too with the next employer, so if you move out of a management position, then HR will draft you letter saying so.

RAV will pay 80% if you have kids for 18 months, if you're on B permit and comes up for renewal during that time I think it will be renewed, being on the RAV is the same as being employed, at least it used to be. (worth checking somehow).

If you take the cut, then they can just say you're not up to that job either in few months and let you go. You'll get less money on the RAV and a more junior reference letter from HR.

They don't like you, leave.
You choose to ignore the legal requirement to reduce you claim on the unemployment system, in principle you can't turn down work offered.
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  #54  
Old 30.09.2020, 22:20
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

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You choose to ignore the legal requirement to reduce you claim on the unemployment system, in principle you can't turn down work offered.
So when you're on the RAV, and you're offered a job at macdonalds, technically you're obliged to accept it? Well that must make the RAV's job very easy then.
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Old 30.09.2020, 23:56
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

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So when you're on the RAV, and you're offered a job at macdonalds, technically you're obliged to accept it? Well that must make the RAV's job very easy then.
Exactly. This is why I am confused over what rights people have to turn down unsuitable work whilst still being on the rav

Unless someone has gone through this and understood the criteria what hope in hell is there
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  #56  
Old 01.10.2020, 07:26
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

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Exactly. This is why I am confused over what rights people have to turn down unsuitable work whilst still being on the rav

Unless someone has gone through this and understood the criteria what hope in hell is there
The RAV's job is to reduce the insurance pay out, by getting people back to work, any work if they can't find employment in their previous area. If the pay is less than 70/80% of previous pay, they will top up 70/80% of the difference so the person gets more than on RAV payments.
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Old 01.10.2020, 07:47
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

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I've of the opposite opinion. The other position must largely be on the same T&Cs. But until someone with actual legal knowledge or experience with the RAV for the same scenario, it's speculation.

These tactics are to get the employee to resign. They no longer want the employee; they just have to terminate without cause. I really don't know why employers do it (maybe they come from a culture where it's better to resign than "be fired" - or they don't want to feel bad 'cos they fired someone).

I'd suggest that anyone who is caught in the position have a chat with a lawyer for advice. It should only cost a few hundred - but could save a great deal.

I've seen different cases: people that were not good enough for the job, did not get fired but were offered to step a position down. It doesn't always need to be negative.
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Old 01.10.2020, 09:11
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

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I've seen different cases: people that were not good enough for the job, did not get fired but were offered to step a position down. It doesn't always need to be negative.
My bosses tried this argument. There is a definitely an issue with it, otherwise, when I pointed out to HR that the offer was Änderungskündigung and why, they wouldn't have turned a little pale, terminated the meeting and a very short while later offered me a very generous severance package. Maybe the law has changed for the worse since the mid 2000s, but I doubt it.

(Since I immediately went contracting, the RAV wasn't even in the picture).
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Old 01.10.2020, 10:15
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

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I've of the opposite opinion. The other position must largely be on the same T&Cs. But until someone with actual legal knowledge or experience with the RAV for the same scenario, it's speculation.

These tactics are to get the employee to resign. They no longer want the employee; they just have to terminate without cause. I really don't know why employers do it (maybe they come from a culture where it's better to resign than "be fired" - or they don't want to feel bad 'cos they fired someone).

I'd suggest that anyone who is caught in the position have a chat with a lawyer for advice. It should only cost a few hundred - but could save a great deal.
But in the case referred to, the employee is on an expiring fixed term contract, so they don't even need to 'terminate'.
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Old 01.10.2020, 11:35
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Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team

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But in the case referred to, the employee is on an expiring fixed term contract, so they don't even need to 'terminate'.
whoops - missed that fairly crucial piece of information!
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