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-   -   Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team (https://www.englishforum.ch/employment/298233-told-get-out-take-up-lower-position-within-same-team.html)

kocab 22.05.2020 15:39

Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team
 
Good day folks,

I have a bit of a dilemma, and I would really appreciate some little and kind advice.

My company has politely offered to terminate my contract or that I take lower paid position with less responsibility i.e. I work in management and I would transition to a more Technical role within the team. I have been in the company for over 4 years and it will be a reduction of 20% in my salary. Excuse used, performance not where it should be etc.

I was asking the question to myself, why even give me other options but here is my thinking:

• They still need me and the timing is bad, probably 20% of my old role will be applicable in the new role, because no one can perform these tasks (Well they can, but with difficulty).

• If they really did not like me, then, they would not have given me another option, at all. They would have fired me immediately, that is a certainty.

• They still have hope in me and partly they know I have family, as well, the situation is bad out there. The company in general is mindful and considerate like this when dealing with staff members (Bit of a family business attitude) unless you have a very bad attitude/response when handling difficult situations or are completely useless.

• Maybe not ready to kick me out now, but kick me out later unless I perform in this technical role.

I have concerns if I accept the proposal on offer.

IF I take the position....

OPTION A

PROS
- Stay and fight, take their option, Things could work out in the end, though I will be on a lower pay grade and have less job responsibility
- Buys me time, I could ride out the Corona storm and look for new opportunities when business situation improves then this would just be a blip once I find a new job, thats with the assumption that they keep me on when in this technical role.
- I get to up my skills and knowledge, again, so long I survive.

CONS
- Business situation is unknown; they might still put me out on my ass in a few months’ time. I for sure will be on that list if things deteriorate further in this current climate, they hinted that I would be but hopefully Corona virus situation improves.
- Lower position, will be fed to the dogs and be up against it
- No guarantee things will work out, hard to tell. I need to get technical now
- Stressful (Always looking over my shoulders per say) - Of course, I am not afraid of stress.
- If they get rid of me even in the lower paid job role, then I assume RAV will take my last known salary average for 3 months I assume? Which will be 20% on top of the other 20% initial salary reduction...i.e. that is nearly/around a total of 40% of income lost. This I cannot or barely can survive on with my family - This is actually my biggest fear regarding this specific point, as it will have real impact on generally surviving with family/kids.

If I do not take the position

OPTION B

PROS
- I go on RAV with 20% salary reduction (Of course RAV is not a Pro) but instead of facing a possible 40% reduction (RAV would take the higher salary), I am now facing 20% reduction.
- Impact to how I go about my life is manageable with 20% reduction
- Clean break from my employers to focus on new opportunities

CONS
- Corona pandemic may make it almost impossible to find a new job
- Stressful, but a different kind of stress (Not looking over my shoulders per say)


Of course, if the company tries to put me on a 3 month probationary period in the new role then the outcome is pretty easy for me to select Option B in that case.

KiwiSteve 22.05.2020 17:38

Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team
 
Check the RAV maximums. It is 80% up to a limit and you will certainly have a down time as you would then be leaving rather than being fired.
It is much easier to get a new job if you are currently employed rather than being on RAV.
Going on RAV can negatively affect the psyche.

erchegyia 22.05.2020 17:53

Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team
 
...and don't consider RAV as an easy way of getting money. You really need to keep looking for job, practically you cannot leave the country for longer periods, etc.

EdwinNL 22.05.2020 17:59

Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team
 
I'd say it all boils down to:

How quickly do you think you can get a job around the salary level you have currently, and take in account the state of the economy.

PS: A double 20% reduction would be a 36% reduction instead of 40% ;)

curley 22.05.2020 20:05

Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kocab (Post 3183759)
.......
• They still need me and the timing is bad, probably 20% of my old role will be applicable in the new role, because no one can perform these tasks (Well they can, but with difficulty)......

Will you be replaced in the old position?
If not - how can it be your performance? Sounds more like they want to get rid of the job-position.
What permit are you on? C is pretty safe.

Guess it depends on your ego/pride. Also on how sure are you, you will find the same position/salary you had so far in a new place?
If the "lower position" is easier to find for you somewhere else, it's better to look for a new job while employed.

NotAllThere 22.05.2020 20:28

Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team
 
It happened to me. Only the idiots who were my manager didn't quite understand that I'd been appointed as a manager, not a "programmer who happens to be team lead". Once this was pointed out, with HR present, I left with an enormous leaving package.

I strongly suggest you speak to someone who understands Änderungkundigungs.

If you decide to leave without a decent package, make sure they sack you. btw - your job is over. Look for a new position. If, in the meantime, you accept the change to your contract, then that's ok. But you must plan to leave. You cannot stay.

Brian1985 23.05.2020 10:43

Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team
 
Swiss companies surely understand how the RAV works so I can only assume that when local companies offer employees the choice between a salary cut and a termination it is their way of asking you to take the termination which saves them from having to deal with any legal blow back from terminating an employee. They know you are doing the internal calculation with the 20% + 20% reduction (36% in total) and leaving it up to you to decide on the risk you want to take.

curley 23.05.2020 12:06

Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian1985 (Post 3183944)
Swiss companies surely understand how the RAV works so I can only assume that when local companies offer employees the choice between a salary cut and a termination it is their way of asking you to take the termination which saves them from having to deal with any legal blow back from terminating an employee. They know you are doing the internal calculation with the 20% + 20% reduction (36% in total) and leaving it up to you to decide on the risk you want to take.

Legal blow back from terminating an employee? In Switzerland? :confused:
Unless the guy is pregnant. An other miracle then.

st2lemans 23.05.2020 13:08

Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kocab (Post 3183759)
- If they get rid of me even in the lower paid job role, then I assume RAV will take my last known salary average for 3 months I assume?

6 or 12 months, whichever is to your advantage.

Tom

Karl 23.05.2020 13:51

Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian1985 (Post 3183944)
Swiss companies surely understand how the RAV works so I can only assume that when local companies offer employees the choice between a salary cut and a termination it is their way of asking you to take the termination which saves them from having to deal with any legal blow back from terminating an employee. They know you are doing the internal calculation with the 20% + 20% reduction (36% in total) and leaving it up to you to decide on the risk you want to take.

There is no "legal blow back" for companies who fire employees in Switzerland. They only need to claim "restructuring". Employees have virtually no recourse.

jazh 23.05.2020 15:50

Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by curley (Post 3183963)
Legal blow back from terminating an employee? In Switzerland? :confused:
Unless the guy is pregnant. An other miracle then.

I have a good friend who is a lawyer in Switzerland and does quite a lot of empoyment law. She would not agree with what you wrote above.

While there is a lot of freedom for companies in Switzerland to dismiss employees, there are also a lot of mistakes that companies can make duirng the dismisal process. This good friend of mine makes a very good living hired to review firings from Swiss companies. She often acheives quite a lot for her clients (the ones who have been fired). The solutions that she achieves normally do not result in the employee staying with their company, but she can make it very very expensive for a company who makes a mistake.

jazh 23.05.2020 15:54

Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team
 
Can you send me a message. I'd like to send you a PM about your situation.

NotAllThere 23.05.2020 16:40

Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jazh (Post 3184007)
While there is a lot of freedom for companies in Switzerland to dismiss employees, there are also a lot of mistakes that companies can make duirng the dismisal process.

Indeed. It's quite amusing that the process to do it all correctly isn't that difficult, yet managers screw it up frequently - a combination of arrogance and stupidity, I guess.

Lapithos 23.05.2020 18:53

Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kocab (Post 3183759)
Good day folks,

I have a bit of a dilemma, and I would really appreciate some little and kind advice.

My company has politely offered to terminate my contract or that I take lower paid position with less responsibility i.e. I work in management and I would transition to a more Technical role within the team. I have been in the company for over 4 years and it will be a reduction of 20% in my salary. Excuse used, performance not where it should be etc.

I was asking the question to myself, why even give me other options but here is my thinking:

• They still need me and the timing is bad, probably 20% of my old role will be applicable in the new role, because no one can perform these tasks (Well they can, but with difficulty).

• If they really did not like me, then, they would not have given me another option, at all. They would have fired me immediately, that is a certainty.

• They still have hope in me and partly they know I have family, as well, the situation is bad out there. The company in general is mindful and considerate like this when dealing with staff members (Bit of a family business attitude) unless you have a very bad attitude/response when handling difficult situations or are completely useless.

• Maybe not ready to kick me out now, but kick me out later unless I perform in this technical role.

I have concerns if I accept the proposal on offer.

IF I take the position....

OPTION A

PROS
- Stay and fight, take their option, Things could work out in the end, though I will be on a lower pay grade and have less job responsibility
- Buys me time, I could ride out the Corona storm and look for new opportunities when business situation improves then this would just be a blip once I find a new job, thats with the assumption that they keep me on when in this technical role.
- I get to up my skills and knowledge, again, so long I survive.

CONS
- Business situation is unknown; they might still put me out on my ass in a few months’ time. I for sure will be on that list if things deteriorate further in this current climate, they hinted that I would be but hopefully Corona virus situation improves.
- Lower position, will be fed to the dogs and be up against it
- No guarantee things will work out, hard to tell. I need to get technical now
- Stressful (Always looking over my shoulders per say) - Of course, I am not afraid of stress.
- If they get rid of me even in the lower paid job role, then I assume RAV will take my last known salary average for 3 months I assume? Which will be 20% on top of the other 20% initial salary reduction...i.e. that is nearly/around a total of 40% of income lost. This I cannot or barely can survive on with my family - This is actually my biggest fear regarding this specific point, as it will have real impact on generally surviving with family/kids.

If I do not take the position

OPTION B

PROS
- I go on RAV with 20% salary reduction (Of course RAV is not a Pro) but instead of facing a possible 40% reduction (RAV would take the higher salary), I am now facing 20% reduction.
- Impact to how I go about my life is manageable with 20% reduction
- Clean break from my employers to focus on new opportunities

CONS
- Corona pandemic may make it almost impossible to find a new job
- Stressful, but a different kind of stress (Not looking over my shoulders per say)


Of course, if the company tries to put me on a 3 month probationary period in the new role then the outcome is pretty easy for me to select Option B in that case.

First, do NOT quit. Second, do NOT quit. :) I would not accept the new position, as it is, in my eyes, a way to make you quit. Let them fire u, and u take it from there.

Dandy 23.05.2020 21:46

Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team
 
Difficult to assess your situation if we don't know your wage level. Are you working at Google and your salary will be reduced from 350K/year to 280K/year or at a small local company where your salary will be reduced from 110K/year to 88K/year? Unless we know hard to give good advice.

kri 24.05.2020 02:38

Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jazh (Post 3184007)
I have a good friend who is a lawyer in Switzerland and does quite a lot of empoyment law. She would not agree with what you wrote above.

While there is a lot of freedom for companies in Switzerland to dismiss employees, there are also a lot of mistakes that companies can make duirng the dismisal process. This good friend of mine makes a very good living hired to review firings from Swiss companies. She often acheives quite a lot for her clients (the ones who have been fired). The solutions that she achieves normally do not result in the employee staying with their company, but she can make it very very expensive for a company who makes a mistake.

Many companies will pay an extra month or two to make a nuisance go away. That does not mean anything was "wrong" with the process. It's pretty simple really - respect and pay for the notice and give a reason. Reason can be performance, restructuring etc. Bad performance does not need proving like in many countries.

kocab 24.05.2020 22:01

Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kocab (Post 3183759)
Good day folks,

I have a bit of a dilemma, and I would really appreciate some little and kind advice.

My company has politely offered to terminate my contract or that I take lower paid position with less responsibility i.e. I work in management and I would transition to a more Technical role within the team. I have been in the company for over 4 years and it will be a reduction of 20% in my salary. Excuse used, performance not where it should be etc.

I was asking the question to myself, why even give me other options but here is my thinking:

• They still need me and the timing is bad, probably 20% of my old role will be applicable in the new role, because no one can perform these tasks (Well they can, but with difficulty).

• If they really did not like me, then, they would not have given me another option, at all. They would have fired me immediately, that is a certainty.

• They still have hope in me and partly they know I have family, as well, the situation is bad out there. The company in general is mindful and considerate like this when dealing with staff members (Bit of a family business attitude) unless you have a very bad attitude/response when handling difficult situations or are completely useless.

• Maybe not ready to kick me out now, but kick me out later unless I perform in this technical role.

I have concerns if I accept the proposal on offer.

IF I take the position....

OPTION A

PROS
- Stay and fight, take their option, Things could work out in the end, though I will be on a lower pay grade and have less job responsibility
- Buys me time, I could ride out the Corona storm and look for new opportunities when business situation improves then this would just be a blip once I find a new job, thats with the assumption that they keep me on when in this technical role.
- I get to up my skills and knowledge, again, so long I survive.

CONS
- Business situation is unknown; they might still put me out on my ass in a few months’ time. I for sure will be on that list if things deteriorate further in this current climate, they hinted that I would be but hopefully Corona virus situation improves.
- Lower position, will be fed to the dogs and be up against it
- No guarantee things will work out, hard to tell. I need to get technical now
- Stressful (Always looking over my shoulders per say) - Of course, I am not afraid of stress.
- If they get rid of me even in the lower paid job role, then I assume RAV will take my last known salary average for 3 months I assume? Which will be 20% on top of the other 20% initial salary reduction...i.e. that is nearly/around a total of 40% of income lost. This I cannot or barely can survive on with my family - This is actually my biggest fear regarding this specific point, as it will have real impact on generally surviving with family/kids.

If I do not take the position

OPTION B

PROS
- I go on RAV with 20% salary reduction (Of course RAV is not a Pro) but instead of facing a possible 40% reduction (RAV would take the higher salary), I am now facing 20% reduction.
- Impact to how I go about my life is manageable with 20% reduction
- Clean break from my employers to focus on new opportunities

CONS
- Corona pandemic may make it almost impossible to find a new job
- Stressful, but a different kind of stress (Not looking over my shoulders per say)


Of course, if the company tries to put me on a 3 month probationary period in the new role then the outcome is pretty easy for me to select Option B in that case.

**********************************
Thanks all for your replies.

I can’t fight this, I can only accept what’s on the table or leave it.

I am also not interested in trying to fight this and aggravate the situation, its not healthy, and doesn’t serve anyones interest. It will be their word against mine. I shouldn’t need to fight for my existence though.

One thing is for sure, I will not quit for the obvious reasons mentioned. I work as a project manager in IT, I earn 125k per year and the bonus scheme has been scrapped permanently.

Like what someone has said, even if I stay, take up the alternative job on offer, I will still have to find work elsewhere and now work in a toxic environment where I will be up against it.

I rather not go on RAV especially during these hard times, but I am not entirely sure if it will make sense to lose 15% going to the other job and possibly up to 36% if the company doesn't recover which would put me in a difficult position. I am not worried about the 15% but I am very worried about the 36%.

Its a bit like this

1) On RAV, no job and 36% income shortage
2) On RAV, no job and 15% income shortage
3) Job, 15% income shortage, toxic environment, high risk of being let go and point 1 comes into play.

Point 2 seems to be least risk for me. I will have much longer to find a job. No. 1 puts me under severe pressure.

I have 3 months leave, about 6 weeks of holiday left. I believe that if I don’t accept the alternative offer then they will put me on gardening leave ie 3 months + 6 weeks holiday next week. That will take me into October before I would go on RAV. Of course, its possible that they cash me out. The preference might be the gardening leave as it would delay my arrival to RAV and I can find work in between. PS. I am on a B-permit.

Dandy 25.05.2020 09:39

Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team
 
The RAV will take your income of the last 2 years as a basis for the calculation of unemployment benefits. If you have family with kids it will be 80% of this. But you have the risk of losing your B permit if you do not find a job wihtin 2 years:

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...b_eu_efta.html

Susie-Q 25.05.2020 10:57

Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by curley (Post 3183963)
Legal blow back from terminating an employee? In Switzerland? :confused:
Unless the guy is pregnant. An other miracle then.

Or on medical leave...it will usually be settled out of court with a lawyer. ;)

st2lemans 25.05.2020 11:28

Re: Told to get out or take up lower position within the same Team
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dandy (Post 3184432)
The RAV will take your income of the last 2 years as a basis for the calculation of unemployment benefits.

Wrong, it is the last 6 months (or 12 if that's to your advantage).

And it's the ALK that does the calculation and pays you, not the RAV.

Tom


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