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Old 17.06.2020, 21:01
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Re: Quitting

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Thanks everyone for their messages. I wasn't expecting this to get this much attention and as a matter of fact a couple of you guys missed the real question "My question is, even if they take 2 or 3 months to pay me, can I start the german course in the first month that I register with RAV?"

But since many of you created a different discussion...

Clearly there are 2 different mindsets and types of thoughts on this situation.

The "don't leave the job" or "don't milk the system" mentality which shows a more conservative approach.

And the other mentalitly which is clearly the one I'm trying to go with, which is, if one is not happy with something, he should seek for a better way of life. Is it a risk? Yes it is, but like I mentioned in my topic, I will leave the job sooner or later, it's not my area of interest and not my field of work as well.
Of course it's normal not to like the job or prefer something else, or prefer to be a pop star musician, yea I get it, but I'm still young, I'm in my early 20s and I'm afraid to take wrong decisions, working in a job which is clearly not what I like and it was just a job to save some money doesn't look like the best decision in life.

Are you guys trying to say that if one starts a career in the wrong path they can't change? Once a housekeeper always a housekeeper?
I need german to pursue the career I want.

For the ones that asked, I have B, I'm from an european country and I work in this job for almost 2 years. I'm in my early 20's. I came to switzerland to save some money to invest in my life or pursue further education. I like switzerland as a country, so I decided to stay longer.

I don't want to "milk" RAV actually, that's why I mentioned I don't even mind not getting paid the first 3 months as long as they pay me the german course from the beginning. I think this is what many people didn't understand, I don't want RAV's money, I want their help to improve my german so I can find a better job in my field. I don't want to stay there for 1 year like many people do.
I think 3, 4 or 5 months would be extremely useful for my german.

For the ones that suggest me trying to learn german for free or in my free time, well, trust me I tried. People are different but in my case I can't seem to focus much on learning while I'm working full time. I tried it for years already, back in my country I was studying 2 times per week while working, and I was even in a 1 day per week german course here in switzerland for as long as 1 year. Did it help? yes, but it's definitly not enough and its a slow process. I like to study so I know if I go to an intesive course I will manage to learn way faster.

And like lost_inbroad said, if I do stay in this job for much longer, I will probably be miserable, which I already am, kinda.
The best thing to do is contact RAV directly. RAV doesn't decide whether they will pay for a course, the Bundes-something for something something Wirtschaft does but only after a recommendation from RAV. You will have to fill out a form in German and then forward it to RAV and because they're extremely efficient, they will then send it over to the right authorities. If you do get such form, I can help you out filling it out, in case you require help with it. Basically, you need to convince your RAV advisor, that you'll be able to find a job faster after having completed suggeste course.
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  #22  
Old 17.06.2020, 21:09
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Re: Quitting

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Thanks everyone for their messages. I wasn't expecting this to get this much attention and as a matter of fact a couple of you guys missed the real question "My question is, even if they take 2 or 3 months to pay me, can I start the german course in the first month that I register with RAV?"

But since many of you created a different discussion...

Clearly there are 2 different mindsets and types of thoughts on this situation.

The "don't leave the job" or "don't milk the system" mentality which shows a more conservative approach.

And the other mentalitly which is clearly the one I'm trying to go with, which is, if one is not happy with something, he should seek for a better way of life. Is it a risk? Yes it is, but like I mentioned in my topic, I will leave the job sooner or later, it's not my area of interest and not my field of work as well.
Of course it's normal not to like the job or prefer something else, or prefer to be a pop star musician, yea I get it, but I'm still young, I'm in my early 20s and I'm afraid to take wrong decisions, working in a job which is clearly not what I like and it was just a job to save some money doesn't look like the best decision in life.

Are you guys trying to say that if one starts a career in the wrong path they can't change? Once a housekeeper always a housekeeper?
I need german to pursue the career I want.

For the ones that asked, I have B, I'm from an european country and I work in this job for almost 2 years. I'm in my early 20's. I came to switzerland to save some money to invest in my life or pursue further education. I like switzerland as a country, so I decided to stay longer.

I don't want to "milk" RAV actually, that's why I mentioned I don't even mind not getting paid the first 3 months as long as they pay me the german course from the beginning. I think this is what many people didn't understand, I don't want RAV's money, I want their help to improve my german so I can find a better job in my field. I don't want to stay there for 1 year like many people do.
I think 3, 4 or 5 months would be extremely useful for my german.

For the ones that suggest me trying to learn german for free or in my free time, well, trust me I tried. People are different but in my case I can't seem to focus much on learning while I'm working full time. I tried it for years already, back in my country I was studying 2 times per week while working, and I was even in a 1 day per week german course here in switzerland for as long as 1 year. Did it help? yes, but it's definitly not enough and its a slow process. I like to study so I know if I go to an intesive course I will manage to learn way faster.

And like lost_inbroad said, if I do stay in this job for much longer, I will probably be miserable, which I already am, kinda.
And I think you missed this reply directly after your post.

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Unlikely. They'll need to go through the first round of meetings, send you for language assessment, then assign you onto a course. And even then, it's not guaranteed.

If you've already registered on one it's very unlikely (as in, no chance whatsoever) that they'll pay for it.

Oh, and it's RAV, by the way, not RAF. The German V is often pronounced like an English F.
Bear in mind that even if you aren't getting paid by RAV you'll still be expected to turn in 10 or more job applications a month - the figure is something you'd need to find out from your RAV councillor when you're assigned one. That the normal minimum they expect, but in these virus hit times they may adjust it. If they think you taking a German course will improve your chances of getting a job quicker then they may assign you to one. If they don't they won't, plain and simple, and if you decide to do one on your own you'll still be expected to interrupt it to attend any job interviews you may get.
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Old 17.06.2020, 21:39
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Re: Quitting

"Are you guys trying to say that if one starts a career in the wrong path they can't change? Once a housekeeper always a housekeeper"


I don't think anyone was trying to say that. I've had an administration and secretarial career in a foreign City bank, then a career in the arts as an assistant to an art gallery director, followed by working with senior management and a board of trustees in a heritage charity. I then progressed to retraining as a Copywriter in my late 40s and ran a software development company with my husband. In between the first and the second of my list I took time out and studied full time for a degree at London University in my early to mid 30s.

I think I know a lot about being able to change careers, same with my husband - he used to be a factory manager and left it behind for IT in his mid 40s, he's now a senior software development consultant.

It's all perfectly possible, but you have to think clearly before jacking in a job when you're not a native of the country you are living in.
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Old 17.06.2020, 22:15
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Re: Quitting

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Thanks everyone for their messages. I wasn't expecting this to get this much attention and as a matter of fact a couple of you guys missed the real question "My question is, even if they take 2 or 3 months to pay me, can I start the german course in the first month that I register with RAV?"

But since many of you created a different discussion...

Clearly there are 2 different mindsets and types of thoughts on this situation.

The "don't leave the job" or "don't milk the system" mentality which shows a more conservative approach.

And the other mentalitly which is clearly the one I'm trying to go with, which is, if one is not happy with something, he should seek for a better way of life. Is it a risk? Yes it is, but like I mentioned in my topic, I will leave the job sooner or later, it's not my area of interest and not my field of work as well.
Of course it's normal not to like the job or prefer something else, or prefer to be a pop star musician, yea I get it, but I'm still young, I'm in my early 20s and I'm afraid to take wrong decisions, working in a job which is clearly not what I like and it was just a job to save some money doesn't look like the best decision in life.

Are you guys trying to say that if one starts a career in the wrong path they can't change? Once a housekeeper always a housekeeper?
I need german to pursue the career I want.

For the ones that asked, I have B, I'm from an european country and I work in this job for almost 2 years. I'm in my early 20's. I came to switzerland to save some money to invest in my life or pursue further education. I like switzerland as a country, so I decided to stay longer.

I don't want to "milk" RAV actually, that's why I mentioned I don't even mind not getting paid the first 3 months as long as they pay me the german course from the beginning. I think this is what many people didn't understand, I don't want RAV's money, I want their help to improve my german so I can find a better job in my field. I don't want to stay there for 1 year like many people do.
I think 3, 4 or 5 months would be extremely useful for my german.

For the ones that suggest me trying to learn german for free or in my free time, well, trust me I tried. People are different but in my case I can't seem to focus much on learning while I'm working full time. I tried it for years already, back in my country I was studying 2 times per week while working, and I was even in a 1 day per week german course here in switzerland for as long as 1 year. Did it help? yes, but it's definitly not enough and its a slow process. I like to study so I know if I go to an intesive course I will manage to learn way faster.

And like lost_inbroad said, if I do stay in this job for much longer, I will probably be miserable, which I already am, kinda.
Why don't you ask your employer for a reduced workload in order for you to attend German courses. Tell them, that work related stress is slowly reaching a critical point and that you'd like to experience more of what the country has to offer. You can only do that if you're able to speak better German and therefore, ask if they'd be willing to pay for the course. If your emplyoer refuses to pay for your course, ask for a reduced workload, so that you're able to attend an intensive German course. I'd start with that route first.
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Old 18.06.2020, 08:31
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Re: Quitting

I am not sure just how much taking a course will help you to learn German. It depends so much on the teacher. Also, will better German really help you to get a job? It depends a lot on what you do but without fluent German and understanding Swiss German most office jobs will not be open to you.


I would try online courses but CH is a really difficult place to learn German. It would be interesting to know how many forum members progressed from A1 to C1 or higher German during their time here. If you were in the Romandie becoming fluent in French is definitely possible but CH dialect makes learning German here so much more difficult.


Watching local TV like Tele Züri can help with dialect. Try also reading the 20 Minuten newspaper. German requires mastering the grammar before you can move much beyond A2. However as there are relatively few exceptions to the grammar rules, once you do get to B1 you can quickly progress. The challenge is finding people to practice your German with. Depending on what your native language is, tandems may help.
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Old 18.06.2020, 08:48
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Re: Quitting

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Absolutely, also this:

https://www.20min.ch/story/hat-jeman...n-905820452627

People who legitimately sign up for RAV aren't even receiving benefits due to a backlog and are going hungry.

Lack of documentation is causing the delays according to this article? Just what documentation are they talking about? I have signed up with RAV on 5 separate occasions and can´t recall that much documentation being required. Perhaps if less people were assigned to pointless interviews and more to processing claims the system would work more quickly.
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Old 18.06.2020, 09:15
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Re: Quitting

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T

Of course it's normal not to like the job or prefer something else, or prefer to be a pop star musician, yea I get it, but I'm still young, I'm in my early 20s and I'm afraid to take wrong decisions, working in a job which is clearly not what I like and it was just a job to save some money doesn't look like the best decision in life.

Are you guys trying to say that if one starts a career in the wrong path they can't change? Once a housekeeper always a housekeeper?
I need german to pursue the career I want.



And like lost_inbroad said, if I do stay in this job for much longer, I will probably be miserable, which I already am, kinda.

Goodness, you are in your early 20's with your whole life in front of you. Nobody is saying that you cannot change career and what you make of your life is down to you. However, like everything in life, if you really want something you need to put in the hard work and effort and make a few sacrifices. Don't expect it to be easy or be handed to you on a plate.

At your age, staying in a job for now because it provides you with the income needed to support yourself while you study for your career change is surely a worthwhile sacrifice.

People who make a success of their life and chosen career (or multiple careers) are the ones who don't look for the easy route (giving up work and have RAV pay for your courses) and don't think of 10 reasons why they cannot do something but solid plans for how they will achieve it.

You are struggling to learn German, OK. Take 2 weeks holiday and pay for your own intensive course. Pay someone to do an hour one on one each night. Watch German TV, have headphones on playing German lessons every free moment you get. Ask friends to speak German with you and help you. Join a sport club where everyone speaks German.

I really don't understand the mentality that it is better to take advantage of RAV because someone has worked for a couple of years and should be entitled to the insurance. And I definitely do not agree with the enabling comments that if you don't enjoy your job you will become unhappy and start popping opioids!
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Old 18.06.2020, 09:17
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Re: Quitting

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"I have also heard anecdotal evidence that the intensive language programs, paid for by the RAV are not as freely given out as they once were."

I went on one that was 90 minutes 5 mornings a week for 6 weeks back in 2016, via the voucher I was given with my residency permit. It wasn't great, we had one teacher, a German guy, who was good and another young woman who was like a headless chicken and none of us could follow her. She taught using little kids games and nobody actually learned anything the 2 days a week we had her. It put me off German until 2 years later. Met someone else who took the course and she said the same, it put her off. With the voucher scheme in Baselstadt you can only attend certain course providers.
Had the exact same experience. I learned nothing in those classes - many of the people in the class only spoke one language, and they were all different languages. What a mess! I was able to hire a private tutor 1 x per week and that did far more for me than those classes. After I stopped the tutor, Duolingo premium is truly excellent!
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Old 18.06.2020, 09:22
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Re: Quitting

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Had the exact same experience. I learned nothing in those classes - many of the people in the class only spoke one language, and they were all different languages. What a mess! I was able to hire a private tutor 1 x per week and that did far more for me than those classes. After I stopped the tutor, Duolingo premium is truly excellent!

I learned absolutely nothing in my intensive course either. I saw no point in playing silly games as if we were all 10. There were also people of many different nationalities and we learned at the pace of the slowest learners, which was really slow! I agree that is was a complete mess
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Old 18.06.2020, 09:33
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Re: Quitting

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And the other mentalitly which is clearly the one I'm trying to go with, which is, if one is not happy with something, he should seek for a better way of life.

Are you guys trying to say that if one starts a career in the wrong path they can't change? Once a housekeeper always a housekeeper?
I need german to pursue the career I want.

I don't want to "milk" RAV actually, that's why I mentioned I don't even mind not getting paid the first 3 months as long as they pay me the german course from the beginning. I think this is what many people didn't understand, I don't want RAV's money, I want their help to improve my german so I can find a better job in my field. I don't want to stay there for 1 year like many people do.
Your youth is showing. That's OK, we have all been young once and it takes time to learn the rather cruel realities of life. Yes, you should absolutely pursue happiness towards the job and life you want. One can do that while working in a job they don't like.

You are milking the system, you want RAV to immediately pay your German lessons and eventually pay you after 3 months. The system is there for people who have lost their jobs or who have had to leave it because their health was so poorly effected by their work, they had no choice. If everyone used the system like you would like to, the system simply wouldn't exist. Imagine being a married 45 year old father of 3 who suddenly loses his job due to restructuring because of COVID-19? What makes you entitled to RAV over him? Just because you want to pursue happiness and do what you want? Have some reflection. Fighting obstacles on the path to success is what makes you in this world. Keep at it and don't expect anybody to pay your way towards it.

You mention that in your job now that you are able to save money, why not use that money to pay for decent German lessons? A private tutor is what works best for me. Start with 2-3 lessons per week.
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Old 18.06.2020, 11:42
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Re: Quitting

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And the other mentalitly which is clearly the one I'm trying to go with, which is, if one is not happy with something, he should seek for a better way of life. Is it a risk? Yes it is, but like I mentioned in my topic, I will leave the job sooner or later, it's not my area of interest and not my field of work as well.
I'd guess everyone is also after happiness. Just consider for a minute that leaving the bad job could be like jumping from a frying pan into the fire of long term unemployment due to the imminent economic crisis. This is not about RAV, it's about leaving a mildly unhappy situation for a very distressful situation.

Of course, every decision entails risk but if you only see risks you'll never do anything. There's fine line between decisiveness and recklessness. I'm not saying your decision is wrong. I don't and won't ever have the information to assess it properly. I'd even say there are neither good or bad decisions but timing is what really matters. Pursuing happiness? Commendable. Personal development? Bravo. Career change? Go for it. Timing? Think it twice.
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Old 18.06.2020, 11:54
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Re: Quitting

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You are milking the system, you want RAV to immediately pay your German lessons and eventually pay you after 3 months.
No, it's not "milking the system", it's a perfectly reasonable question about how the insurance he's been paying for will work if and when he needs to make a claim.

RAV is not a government hand-out, and the criteria for benefiting from it are strictly controlled, but I fail to see what's wrong with someone trying to work out in advance the best strategy to get the best out of his situation and avoid running into problems.

It's on a par with asking how best to claim for damage to your car, or whether you'll be able to get a courtesy car paid for. Nobody demonises you for trying to get the best from your insurance company when it comes to cars, or household cover, so why should it be different with RAV?
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Old 18.06.2020, 12:23
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Re: Quitting

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No, it's not "milking the system", it's a perfectly reasonable question about how the insurance he's been paying for will work if and when he needs to make a claim.

RAV is not a government hand-out, and the criteria for benefiting from it are strictly controlled, but I fail to see what's wrong with someone trying to work out in advance the best strategy to get the best out of his situation and avoid running into problems.

It's on a par with asking how best to claim for damage to your car, or whether you'll be able to get a courtesy car paid for. Nobody demonises you for trying to get the best from your insurance company when it comes to cars, or household cover, so why should it be different with RAV?

Nope, checking the terms and conditions BEFORE you select which insurance company and level of insurance for the price is called doing your due diligence. That doesn't apply to RAV insurance. Trying to look for loopholes and not being entirely truthful when making a claim is called insurance fraud. In this case a better comparison is if someone says "I drove drunk at high speed because I am a complete idiot but nobody saw me wrap my car around the tree? Does the insurance pay up?


You do also realise that no insurance business has an endless pot of cash to hand out to claimants. What happens when there is a sharp increase in claims because people would rather not work? Insurance prices increase and everyone is forced to pay more. RAV should be for people who are in genuine need and lost their job through no fault of their own. Doesn't apply to this kid.
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Old 18.06.2020, 12:38
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Re: Quitting

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not being entirely truthful when making a claim is called insurance fraud.
And is there anything to suggest that this is what's happening here? No, there is not, and I don't think it's fair to even use that term in this discussion.

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Trying to look for loopholes ...
That neither, he's simply trying to establish what is covered and what is not. Nowhere does he imply any intent to be anything other than completely honest and open with them.
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Old 18.06.2020, 12:53
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Re: Quitting

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And is there anything to suggest that this is what's happening here? No, there is not, and I don't think it's fair to even use that term in this discussion.


That neither, he's simply trying to establish what is covered and what is not. Nowhere does he imply any intent to be anything other than completely honest and open with them.

Did I say there was. I was putting it in context with your post that it is the same as checking insurance when you damage a car.

At the end of the day this is a kid in his early 20's who seems to want the easiest option, which is to quit his job and spend all day leaning German with the course paid by insurance.

There seems to be two trains of thoughts which is either that RAV is free money because it is insurance so everyone should go grab their bit or, alternatively, it should only be there for those in genuine need and not used and abused.
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Old 18.06.2020, 12:55
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Re: Quitting

As I read through this thread, I am stuck at how quickly some of us make value judgements. Instead of judging or labeling what the individual is trying to do, why dont we just give a fact based answer to the question asked. Would we expect anything less when we ask questions. I would hate to ask a question and feel like I need to justify my thinking, my reasons, my options etc. That is not what this forum should be about.

OP, maybe the best approach is to ask RAV directly. However from what I have read in the past, it could vary based on who is your RAV contact person. And try also looking at options like iTalki which can be quite economical options. All the best.
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Old 18.06.2020, 13:52
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Re: Quitting

Not a value judgement, just an opinion:
RAV is not the place to find a language course.
Being unemployed is, in general, not positive for ones health
It is much easier to find a new job when you already have one.
Career change; been there done that, every person is unique so very difficult to give good advice
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Old 18.06.2020, 14:30
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Re: Quitting

I would advise you to take a step back and think about things objectively. You are VERY young and only just starting out in your career... you can easily switch and change and reinvent yourself with the remaining time left in your career.

If you are not happy in your work start looking how you can transition to another job. I would strongly advise against quitting a job and having RAV pay you a german course.... it is not logical in several ways, financially it is not logical...Trust me when I tell you it is easier to find another job when you are already active in a job and not on the chômage, it is generally infinitely better for your mental health to be working, I say generally because there are some extreme situations where you just need to be out of there, but these are exceptions.

The other aspects you need to consider are your motivations for the work you are doing and for being in Switzerland in general. Despite what you might think money is not a good enough reason to be unhappy. I don't know you whole situation if you are supporting family overseas with your salary or have other financial responsibilities then that does reduce a little your options.

I honestly don't think quitting work to dedicate yourself to learning german will solve any longterm issues. The level of german you would need to be useful and pivitol in your work would be B2 and above I would imagine.... this won't arrive in just a few short months even if you do a full time course.

When i arrived, I didn't have a word of french could not even count to 5, i learned german at school and not french. I had a job where all my team were francophone.... i had to learn fast, 9hrs everyday, I felt lost, I felt isolated I felt depressed, I couldn't express myself how I wanted to, I studied to Masters level and talking to people in french they must have imagined I didn't even have a high school diploma lets alone an MSc in scientific subject.... frustrating would be an understatment. I suffered a lot in several ways, but i perservered. After the first couple of years I had all I needed to do the job, after 5 years I am fluent in nearly all situations, Doctors, Politics, technical subjects etc.

I would stay in the job, look for a new job if your not happy or its not your calling. For the language engage with everyone everywhere in German.. the supermarket... the resturant.... make small talk, mention the weather, mention the traffic whatever you would talk to the checkout person or sales assistant about back in your own country. Class room learning will give you grammatical structure, conjucation... great to know... essential... what you wont learn enough of is conversation for this you must talk to natives and locals.

Just my prespective, I wish you luck and strongly advise you to not make decisions when you feel stressed, down or frustrated.

Best of luck
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Old 18.06.2020, 14:33
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Re: Quitting

just few notes for original poster:


- I was offered German classes after few months on RAV, even if this was my wish from the beginning for many reasons (to learn german, I knew it is really needed for successful job search, I also needed a structure in every day)
- I was on intensive course in Allemagnia, not the best, not the worst. 4 hours per day/5 days per week. Contrary to opinions of other people above, for me this is the only way to learn language. I did it twice before on my own, beside work, A2 and B1, but it was huge investment (of time)
- with RAV you have to work very "political", I mean, you shouldn't and there is no need to lie or hide, but you need to be very careful what you say and what you ask. Somehow it is inside their job to make your life at least slightly miserable.
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Old 18.06.2020, 18:06
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Re: Quitting

"Somehow it is inside their job to make your life at least slightly miserable"

Perhaps that's the right way to do things. I base this on what I've witnessed back in Britain and how easy it is for some people to play the system. I have a cousin whose wife left him with 3 boys, he gave up work to bring them up and just conveniently "forgot" to go back to work when they were old enough (he was also doing his trade of painting and decorating on the sly). He remarried and had another kid, wife worked p/t and so they got all sorts of goodies like Working Tax Credits, Child Tax Credits, free school meals etc every month. Now he's retired on a full state pension, getting his rent and council tax covered every month.

I often wish Britain had a much tougher system like other European countries including Switzerland.
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