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-   -   Software Engineer contract - current market rates - Zurich (https://www.englishforum.ch/employment/300299-software-engineer-contract-current-market-rates-zurich.html)

Troublawesome 27.09.2020 18:55

Re: Software Engineer contract - current market rates - Zurich
 
Perhaps you're talking about the IB side of UBS and not the rest 90%?

15k-25k bonuses in UBS is for laughs. Salary for Director is 140k-165k + 8.5k expenses sure but not everyone is a director. In fact 50% of IT are from EPAM, code monkeys at 120k. 20% are Directors and 30% AOs or ADs.

UBS and CS pay less than 8k bonuses for the vast majority of their IT employees, with the exception of perhaps IB and not always.

I have direct experience of hiring devs in these banks and their promotion cycles and rewards.

NewInSchwyz 27.09.2020 19:05

Re: Software Engineer contract - current market rates - Zurich
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Troublawesome (Post 3221248)
Perhaps you're talking about the IB side of UBS and not the rest 90%?

15k-25k bonuses in UBS is for laughs. Salary for Director is 140k-165k + 8.5k expenses sure but not everyone is a director. In fact 50% of IT are from EPAM, code monkeys at 120k. 20% are Directors and 30% AOs or ADs.

UBS and CS pay less than 8k bonuses for the vast majority of their IT employees, with the exception of perhaps IB and not always.

I have direct experience of hiring devs in these banks and their promotion cycles and rewards.

What do you want me to say other than you must be working in back back office. The numbers I gave you are direct experience from a pool of vps using 2019 data points. Yes really one vp got 40 bonus and the lowest was 15. Most got 25k.

We do not use consultancies but we have a few contractors although most are perm

If epam are paying 120k you can guarantee that those that make the interview direct will get paid more surely? I’ve no clue what epam pays but I do know what the perms get confidently

Phil_MCR 27.09.2020 20:13

Re: Software Engineer contract - current market rates - Zurich
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NewInSchwyz (Post 3221252)
What do you want me to say other than you must be working in back back office. The numbers I gave you are direct experience from a pool of vps using 2019 data points. Yes really one vp got 40 bonus and the lowest was 15. Most got 25k.

We do not use consultancies but we have a few contractors although most are perm

If epam are paying 120k you can guarantee that those that make the interview direct will get paid more surely? Iíve no clue what epam pays but I do know what the perms get confidently

Just curious: for these VP positions, how many years of experience post-graudation does this role typically have on starting?

NewInSchwyz 27.09.2020 21:01

Re: Software Engineer contract - current market rates - Zurich
 
On average between five and fifteen years experience. The code base is massive and expect to spend 80% of your time debugging profiilikg unit testing and performance tuning code

The working hours are 8 to 6 give or take

Treverus 28.09.2020 09:04

Re: Software Engineer contract - current market rates - Zurich
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NewInSchwyz (Post 3221243)
I can only say what I have seen and I review the salaries and bonus allocation. From across a team of 30 there are about 10vps. The salary range is min 140 and the highest on the list is 165. Then you have the 8.4K and as I said bonus which for some was 15k and for the high earner 40k. Most got 25ish.

These are actual numbers in 2019

The average age of these 10vps is 30-37 and itís a pure tech role. Indeed they had no knowledge of finance when I interviewed them but wanted to learn. People are from Russia Portugal Romania and Spain and of course Uk

I also have contacts in ubs and I regularly speak about hiring and the war for talent. Actually it turns out that of anything we need to pay more to attract people who would go to google and amazon. So there you have the facts

Im not saying that your experience isnít true, but I will argue that this does not represent the average in Swiss banking or even the big two. I have left CH three years ago, so I donít have 2019 numbers. But I spent years selling it projects to Zurich banks and I can tell you that day rates had a long, slow decline from around 1200 CHF in 2005 to 800 three years ago. There is no war for talent in banks when it comes to IT. Because unlike Google does a bank not earn their money with developers... they are a cost factor and by now do most managers need to explain why a resource really need to be in expensive Switzerland instead of Poland. So yeah, my experience is different... but if you got more of those 165k jobs will this forum get you a lot of candidate profiles...

Dr Mick 28.09.2020 09:49

Re: Software Engineer contract - current market rates - Zurich
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaceq (Post 3220873)
Lol, that's quite optimistic (and I do hire / manage software devs ;) )

Since you hire software devs, you should be able to answer the OP's question :confused:
Why don't you provide a number?, the question is clear.

Gravity 27.10.2020 13:19

Re: Software Engineer contract - current market rates - Zurich
 
Hi does anyone know how much EPAM chops off from the UBS salary, or just how much do they pay to permanent developers assigned to UBS. I have just heard from them. Is it just a cheap body lending business or maybe lending experts anywhere where the internal politics forbids to hire expensive staff?

newtoswitz 27.10.2020 13:53

Re: Software Engineer contract - current market rates - Zurich
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gravity (Post 3231861)
Hi does anyone know how much EPAM chops off from the UBS salary, or just how much do they pay to permanent developers assigned to UBS. I have just heard from them. Is it just a cheap body lending business or maybe lending experts anywhere where the internal politics forbids to hire expensive staff?

I have no idea what cut of the salary they take.

My experience (as a customer, but working closely with the staff) is that they aren't just a bodyshop, they do try to grow their staff and provide support etc.

They also do more complete outsourcing, providing full teams and doing the majority of the organisational work. Plus consulting on various technical topics which is a direction for some of their staff.

On the whole they're one of the better IT resource companies in my experience.

gipfelisturmer 27.10.2020 14:04

Re: Software Engineer contract - current market rates - Zurich
 
Completely agreed.
EPAM is one of the better ones, and definitely doesn't deserve the moniker of a "body shop".
Coming from knowing a few of their team members within my company.

Landers 27.10.2020 15:21

Re: Software Engineer contract - current market rates - Zurich
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gravity (Post 3231861)
Hi does anyone know how much EPAM chops off from the UBS salary, or just how much do they pay to permanent developers assigned to UBS. I have just heard from them. Is it just a cheap body lending business or maybe lending experts anywhere where the internal politics forbids to hire expensive staff?


As you talk about salary, it's not clear to me whether you're talking about becoming an employee of UBS, becoming an employee of a consultancy house, or becoming more like a contractor (contrived to be an employee of e.g. a bodyshop)

Gravity 27.10.2020 16:28

Re: Software Engineer contract - current market rates - Zurich
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Landers (Post 3231929)
As you talk about salary, it's not clear to me whether you're talking about becoming an employee of UBS, becoming an employee of a consultancy house, or becoming more like a contractor (contrived to be an employee of e.g. a bodyshop)

becoming a contractor or employee of EPAM which would let me work at UBS

Gravity 27.10.2020 16:35

Re: Software Engineer contract - current market rates - Zurich
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by newtoswitz (Post 3231876)
I have no idea what cut of the salary they take.

My experience (as a customer, but working closely with the staff) is that they aren't just a bodyshop, they do try to grow their staff and provide support etc.

They also do more complete outsourcing, providing full teams and doing the majority of the organisational work. Plus consulting on various technical topics which is a direction for some of their staff.

On the whole they're one of the better IT resource companies in my experience.

Cool :msncool: I know that banks tend to develop systems in-house, just for their own use. TBH, developing software for a client (UBS) as an employee of EPAM won't differ much from my past career, except this time the development would happen in their client office. I thought it's called body-leasing.

NewInSchwyz 27.10.2020 17:59

Re: Software Engineer contract - current market rates - Zurich
 
luxoft and epam both very good and both at ubs

generally stay away from tata cognisant who are bodyshops

oatcakes 27.10.2020 23:25

Re: Software Engineer contract - current market rates - Zurich
 
Im on around 110,000 CHF as a software development manager (my title is actually a bit different), permanent role, B permit, been with the company for over 2 years, been promoted, have regularly worked outside 9-5,

NewInSchwyz 28.10.2020 10:28

Re: Software Engineer contract - current market rates - Zurich
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by oatcakes (Post 3232086)
Im on around 110,000 CHF as a software development manager (my title is actually a bit different), permanent role, B permit, been with the company for over 2 years, been promoted, have regularly worked outside 9-5,

Is this in zurich or somewhere else?

Dandy 30.10.2020 14:49

Re: Software Engineer contract - current market rates - Zurich
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by oatcakes (Post 3232086)
Im on around 110,000 CHF as a software development manager (my title is actually a bit different), permanent role, B permit, been with the company for over 2 years, been promoted, have regularly worked outside 9-5,


looks like you're underpaid or your job title is overinflated

magyir 30.10.2020 15:18

Re: Software Engineer contract - current market rates - Zurich
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dandy (Post 3233510)
looks like you're underpaid or your job title is overinflated

Depends on the industry. Media pays a lot less than Financial Services, at least according to the Salarium Median estimator https://www.gate.bfs.admin.ch/salari...urSalaryCode=0

ch2013 30.10.2020 15:24

Re: Software Engineer contract - current market rates - Zurich
 
Just been offered a Senior BA / PM role in Zurich for a new system implementation at Fr 600 / day! I have over 20 years experience of doing the same thing - the rates have taken a serious nosedive... :msnshock:

BoredToDeath 30.10.2020 15:43

Re: Software Engineer contract - current market rates - Zurich
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NewInSchwyz (Post 3220931)
I have hired extensively for fx tech Java developers. Mid aged 35 years is around 160k and last years bonus numbers which I handed out were between 10-20%.

What does 'Mid aged 35 years' means?

BoredToDeath 30.10.2020 15:47

Re: Software Engineer contract - current market rates - Zurich
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ch2013 (Post 3233531)
Just been offered a Senior BA / PM role in Zurich for a new system implementation at Fr 600 / day! I have over 20 years experience of doing the same thing - the rates have taken a serious nosedive... :msnshock:

If this is trough the agency then I would say it is not the rate that taken a dive it is agencies that become super greedy. I approve and review IT vendor contractors in pharma all the time and the going rate is 140h for IT developer mid level. However if working through employer or the agent you'd see 85h of it. Agencies in CH lost their mind lately.


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