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  #21  
Old 12.10.2020, 11:13
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Re: Current job market & salaries vs pre-crisis

I would be surprised if you are able to find employers willing to pay the Swiss cost of living premium for a Software Engineer based globally. Remote working is a great idea but you are competing against talented individuals in lower cost-base countries.

I wish you well with your plans and hope I am wrong.

Last edited by Cider Woman; 12.10.2020 at 11:14. Reason: grammar
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  #22  
Old 12.10.2020, 12:20
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Re: Current job market & salaries vs pre-crisis

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Interesting perspective. But I doubt I could pay my rent in floating USD.
- I got pissed off when my UK salary didn't rise in GBP in line with exchange rates given that I'm European qualified and do the vast majority of my work with a European legal organisation.

I guess the same applies in reverse for Swiss salaries.

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 12.10.2020 at 12:44.
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  #23  
Old 12.10.2020, 12:48
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Re: Current job market & salaries vs pre-crisis

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- I got pissed off when my UK salary didn't rise in line with exchange rates given that I'm European qualified and do the vast majority of my work with a European legal organisation.
I remember when the chf went from 1.80 to 2.40 yo the GBP rather quickly & my Swiss salary stayed the same. Salaries were higher in London at the time.
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  #24  
Old 12.10.2020, 15:31
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Re: Current job market & salaries vs pre-crisis

Companies are abusing the corona crisis.

I hired a really talented Sr. DevOps engineer last week. He wanted 170K and had the skills, talent, personality and intelligence to ask for that salary. He passed all my tech interviews, got along perfectly well with the team and is an extremely nice guy to be around.

One of my sr. engineers went to school with him and told me that most companies he applied to offered him 115-120k due to the "difficult times"

Companies should understand that a crisis is not an excuse to start lowering salaries! If you don't have the money, simply don't open positions! Pay your employees a good, market-rate salary and you will be successful.
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Old 12.10.2020, 15:46
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Re: Current job market & salaries vs pre-crisis

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Companies are abusing the corona crisis.

I hired a really talented Sr. DevOps engineer last week. He wanted 170K and had the skills, talent, personality and intelligence to ask for that salary. He passed all my tech interviews, got along perfectly well with the team and is an extremely nice guy to be around.

One of my sr. engineers went to school with him and told me that most companies he applied to offered him 115-120k due to the "difficult times"

Companies should understand that a crisis is not an excuse to start lowering salaries! If you don't have the money, simply don't open positions! Pay your employees a good, market-rate salary and you will be successful.
Nobody is abusing anybody, salaries are based on the market of supply & demand. 115-120 is what they believe the market rate is today, let's see if they fill the job or not.

I won't be surprised if you get fired & rehired on a lower salary, you seem to be out of touch with reality.
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Old 12.10.2020, 16:44
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Re: Current job market & salaries vs pre-crisis

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Nobody is abusing anybody, salaries are based on the market of supply & demand. 115-120 is what they believe the market rate is today, let's see if they fill the job or not.

I won't be surprised if you get fired & rehired on a lower salary, you seem to be out of touch with reality.
170k is the market-rate for an engineer with his skills. You can easily look it up

The second part of your comment is out of context and makes no sense.
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Old 12.10.2020, 17:05
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Re: Current job market & salaries vs pre-crisis

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170k is the market-rate for an engineer with his skills. You can easily look it up

The second part of your comment is out of context and makes no sense.
You are looking up historical data, not forward looking.

You need to think a little harder on that one.
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Old 12.10.2020, 17:10
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Re: Current job market & salaries vs pre-crisis

So if no deal happens at 120 offered, but two parties agree on 170, what is the latest market price?
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  #29  
Old 12.10.2020, 17:17
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Re: Current job market & salaries vs pre-crisis

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So if no deal happens at 120 offered, but two parties agree on 170, what is the latest market price?
The 120 deal may still be too high, it's a different deal between different people possibly arranged off market. In volatile times who knows what the next price will be.
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Old 12.10.2020, 17:25
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Re: Current job market & salaries vs pre-crisis

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So if no deal happens at 120 offered, but two parties agree on 170, what is the latest market price?
It isn't a market in the sense of stocks and shares, the term market price is misleading because it suggests some sort of liquidity which is also a big problem just now.

"Going rate" is probably a better term, and this can be quite volatile and hard to pin down because skills never quite match roles, job titles aren't consistent, etc etc.

My feeling (and only that) at the moment is that contract rates are down maybe 15%, due to caution in hiring and oversupply, but permanent rates haven't changed much because people expect normality to return and supply isn't there so much as nobody wants to move.

If two parties agree on 170 from a starting point of 120, one of them is very happy and the other is an idiot or completely misjudged the original offer.
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Old 12.10.2020, 17:25
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Re: Current job market & salaries vs pre-crisis

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The 120 deal may still be too high, it's a different deal between different people possibly arranged off market. In volatile times who knows what the next price will be.
That's funny. Didn't you just suggest to someone to look up forward looking data?

But back to overall topic, if your hypothesis that market salaries in some cases are down from 170 to 120 is true - that's scary. Is this an opinion you have for IT roles or does this reflect a wider market? Also, if I may ask, what is your direct experience in this lately?
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  #32  
Old 12.10.2020, 17:29
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Re: Current job market & salaries vs pre-crisis

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It isn't a market in the sense of stocks and shares, the term market price is misleading because it suggests some sort of liquidity which is also a big problem just now.

"Going rate" is probably a better term, and this can be quite volatile and hard to pin down because skills never quite match roles, job titles aren't consistent, etc etc.
Fair enough, I appreciate this is not FX trading.

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My feeling (and only that) at the moment is that contract rates are down maybe 15%, due to caution in hiring and oversupply, but permanent rates haven't changed much because people expect normality to return and supply isn't there so much as nobody wants to move.
Is this for IT?

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If two parties agree on 170 from a starting point of 120, one of them is very happy and the other is an idiot or completely misjudged the original offer.
That's not what the example was, if I understood correctly.
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  #33  
Old 12.10.2020, 17:30
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Re: Current job market & salaries vs pre-crisis

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That's funny. Didn't you just suggest to someone to look up forward looking data?

But back to overall topic, if your hypothesis that market salaries in some cases are down from 170 to 120 is true - that's scary. Is this an opinion you have for IT roles or does this reflect a wider market? Also, if I may ask, what is your direct experience in this lately?
If you look at share prices of industries that use a lot of IT, I would expect rates to drop. Many of those business's won't survive with their current cost base, don't know if their management is up to the challenge.
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  #34  
Old 12.10.2020, 17:34
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Re: Current job market & salaries vs pre-crisis

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Is this for IT?


That's not what the example was, if I understood correctly.
IT or financial business stuff.

I hadn't read the original post, just the one directly comparing 120 and 170k.

The original gives a nice example of the market rate though - if "most companies he applied to offered him 115-120k" then that's the rate based on a decent sample if the word "most" means more than a few companies.

ps. I agree with the general point that you don't recruit based on a market dip; at least for permanent staff you should base it on expected rates over a 2-3 year horizon, which (hopefully) means a most a small dip at the moment.
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Old 12.10.2020, 20:38
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Re: Current job market & salaries vs pre-crisis

Check out the going rates for hookers, its a good economic indicator:

https://www.finews.ch/news/finanzpla...rotlichtmilieu

https://www.blick.ch/people-tv/inves...id3357127.html
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  #36  
Old 12.10.2020, 22:51
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Re: Current job market & salaries vs pre-crisis

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I would be surprised if you are able to find employers willing to pay the Swiss cost of living premium for a Software Engineer based globally. Remote working is a great idea but you are competing against talented individuals in lower cost-base countries.

I wish you well with your plans and hope I am wrong.
Well, the "Swiss cost of living" premium is overrated. Life expenses are pretty much the same across the EU for me, but the taxes are much higher except Switzerland. Last 4 years, because of the elevated franc, I was working for just ~120K where I was bullied, frequently doing menial tasks, etc. I would be happier to work even for 100k doing something meaningful and feel engaged. Another path would be to start something on my own. I've never been any good at business, suffice I was a good engineer, but maybe
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Old 12.10.2020, 23:31
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Re: Current job market & salaries vs pre-crisis

...my company first sack some people and tried to press the remaining workers to accept salary reduction without success, now they are willing to employ back those they sacked...they done research, that the market will bounce back and they will be caught unprepared...
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Old 13.10.2020, 00:21
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Re: Current job market & salaries vs pre-crisis

Slightly tangential to the original question, a recruiter sent me a job description this morning.
Daily rate was 600-650 for a contractor role, for a senior software developer.
Luckily I had already finished my coffee.
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Old 13.10.2020, 00:37
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Re: Current job market & salaries vs pre-crisis

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Slightly tangential to the original question, a recruiter sent me a job description this morning.
Daily rate was 600-650 for a contractor role, for a senior software developer.
Luckily I had already finished my coffee.
I've just read an email if 800 chf a day in ZH is acceptable, unfortunately the description sounds really like a jamjob. No I won't bother with jumping right into another menial job.
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  #40  
Old 13.10.2020, 06:59
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Re: Current job market & salaries vs pre-crisis

My wife is a recruiter and from what she says you will have to be very lucky to find a job if you are unemployed also negotiations for a decent salary while unemployed are not going to be in your favour. She has not advised a job in the last three years as it is too much work to work through all the RAV applications which don't fit. She searches through LinkedIn and Xing so if you are contemplating a change be very active on these platforms and network like you are possessed.
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