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  #21  
Old 26.10.2020, 23:10
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Re: Covid redundacies - will the Swiss job market reabsorb the workers?

This is why it is so vital that people understand the rav system and what their notice period is and whether sick might buy some time

I have been scared for a few years but I feel the knife ready to cut a lot of people. When that happens it’s all about maximising the time you have in Switzerland until the recovery happens or until you need to leave. At that point you hopefully have a few coins in your pocket to leave to a different country with your head held high
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  #22  
Old 27.10.2020, 10:14
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Re: Covid redundacies - will the Swiss job market reabsorb the workers?

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Outsourcing of work has been available for 25 years, yet it is still only implemented for lower skill more repetitive functions in the main.
That isn't true at all ... at least in pharma.

My job that I was made redundant for was in the legal field and it was moved to the UK and Poland. In my current company, they have outsourced regulatory and other medical related work that requires medical degrees to India...half of our team is in Zurich and the other half is in Bangalore.

I recently interviewed for another legal role where I would be working for an Indian contracting firm hired by a big Swiss pharma company. My salary offer was significantly lower than the Swiss standard and I believe they even offered me a bit more than other candidates since I am already based here.
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  #23  
Old 27.10.2020, 11:44
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Re: Covid redundacies - will the Swiss job market reabsorb the workers?

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Outsourcing of work has been available for 25 years, yet it is still only implemented for lower skill more repetitive functions in the main.

In my job positions are being closed on CH and people is hired somewhere else. The company has local offices on 60-70 countries. So far in 2020 a large section of finance/accounting moved from Switzerland to Finland. We still have local accounting people, but most of the job invoicing/tracking payments and finance planning at company level is done in Finland. I wouldn't consider accounting and finance low skill.
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Old 27.10.2020, 12:05
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Re: Covid redundacies - will the Swiss job market reabsorb the workers?

While the trend has started a few years back, whether the job market will be in shape to reabsorb pretty much depends on the economy here. Ie - old and new lockdowns, economic slowdown, how well we recover from the current health nightmare, how many new job positions are actually available, etc. It is all interconnected.

Last edited by MusicChick; 27.10.2020 at 12:51.
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  #25  
Old 27.10.2020, 12:32
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Re: Covid redundacies - will the Swiss job market reabsorb the workers?

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In my job positions are being closed on CH and people is hired somewhere else. The company has local offices on 60-70 countries. So far in 2020 a large section of finance/accounting moved from Switzerland to Finland. We still have local accounting people, but most of the job invoicing/tracking payments and finance planning at company level is done in Finland. I wouldn't consider accounting and finance low skill.
invoicing and payment tracking are classic outsourcing work which is what I mean, these types of operational function have long since been on their way.

If by financial planning you mean the core financial strategic planning has been outsourced that is high skill and this is the key question - it has been mostly low skill that moves, will high skill move too ? remember an outsourcing operation is more than just a financial decision. Im not saying that no high skill jobs are outsourced, of course some are, but it is - in the main - still predominantly the more operational tasks that have gone.

Will this change ? There will be more outsourcing im sure from bigger companies but (before covid) demand was still high for skilled employees in switzerland. I doubt the country will just hold up its hands and say "fair enough guv" if all the work is moved outside switzerland and all that tax revenue lost.
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Old 27.10.2020, 13:03
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Re: Covid redundacies - will the Swiss job market reabsorb the workers?

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invoicing and payment tracking are classic outsourcing work which is what I mean, these types of operational function have long since been on their way.

If by financial planning you mean the core financial strategic planning has been outsourced that is high skill and this is the key question - it has been mostly low skill that moves, will high skill move too ? remember an outsourcing operation is more than just a financial decision. Im not saying that no high skill jobs are outsourced, of course some are, but it is - in the main - still predominantly the more operational tasks that have gone.

Will this change ? There will be more outsourcing im sure from bigger companies but (before covid) demand was still high for skilled employees in switzerland. I doubt the country will just hold up its hands and say "fair enough guv" if all the work is moved outside switzerland and all that tax revenue lost.

It all depends on the assessed time frame. I think in the short term the impulse to outsource is quite strong. Of course, there will be a point when unemployment rises too much that some actions will be taken, but we don't know when.
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  #27  
Old 04.03.2021, 14:07
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Re: Covid redundacies - will the Swiss job market reabsorb the workers?

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It all depends on the assessed time frame. I think in the short term the impulse to outsource is quite strong. Of course, there will be a point when unemployment rises too much that some actions will be taken, but we don't know when.
The argument will be made that these companies enjoy the relative freedom of Switzerland and that by outsourcing (and thus moving people onto RAV) that they are profiting of the countries expense.

But this is a globalised world and people welcomed it with open arms.
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  #28  
Old 04.03.2021, 14:17
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Re: Covid redundacies - will the Swiss job market reabsorb the workers?

My personal plan is to go hard after the jobs, where you need to be Swiss or C permit and resident plus the right qualifications. In my case there seems to be connections to banking which I have experience for.

This eliminates the competition from cross border workers and outsourced resources too

This has just by the simple maths have to reduce the competition you are up against.
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  #29  
Old 04.03.2021, 14:50
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Re: Covid redundacies - will the Swiss job market reabsorb the workers?

This may sound harsh but welcome to the real world :-)

1) If you are 40 that means you have at least another 25 years of work ahead of you until 65 (retirement age in most countries today). So you can either sit around wallowing in self pity or you can use this time to retrain and find a new career.

2) My advice would be to do the following: (i) sign up to an intensive language course in the local language, and (ii) sign up to a coding/programming boot camp - there are loads of them in Zurich - and learn a language like Python or Java.

I guarantee that your friends will find a job if they can speak German to B2 level and can write some code in Python. Really shouldn't take longer than 1-2 years to achieve a good level in both.

The alternative is to go home and accept the fact that Switzerland is a society that prioritizes the locals ahead of everyone else.
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  #30  
Old 04.03.2021, 15:09
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Re: Covid redundacies - will the Swiss job market reabsorb the workers?

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The argument will be made that these companies enjoy the relative freedom of Switzerland and that by outsourcing (and thus moving people onto RAV) that they are profiting of the countries expense.

But this is a globalised world and people welcomed it with open arms.
RAV is funded with discounts from our monthly income. And there are cases where people contributed to RAV and cannot get the help when needed because wrong citizenship. Also, Switzerland has negotiated with France a very short period of time for unemployment help for cross-border workers. A few months and then it's France's problem. Don't know about Italy and Austria, but I guess no one's profiting at CH expense.

caveat: some cantons are more generous with the support to pay health insurance while unemployed. I have no idea if this unbalances cantonal budgets or just the 4th decimal in percentage terms.
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  #31  
Old 04.03.2021, 15:52
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Re: Covid redundacies - will the Swiss job market reabsorb the workers?

Interesting thread. I know 6 people who were made redundant in the last year due to "restructuring". All of them fall within similar criteria, i.e. over 40, have kids, been here 5+ years, speak little to no German. All of them are still looking for work with little success. Currently, none of them seem too worried as they are receiving RAV benefits and are perhaps enjoying the time off?

But I have a friend who has been unemployed for 2.5 years. He speaks pretty good German and only had 1 interview during this time. His RAV benefits finished 3 months ago and he's now living off his savings. He's still trying to crack the local market, although something tells me that he needs to consider re-training or similar.

Conversely, I also know of some people who have been relocated to Switzerland in the last 12-18 months for jobs in HR, marketing, operations. I always thought such jobs could be filled locally, yet there are still big companies who are prepared to pay top dollar to move people here for such roles.
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  #32  
Old 04.03.2021, 15:54
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Re: Covid redundacies - will the Swiss job market reabsorb the workers?

with high costs in switzerland, there has been increasing pressure to move jobs abroad which increases with high CHF and improved technology allowing for easier collaboration (which really now took off after covid lockdowns).

even these jobs are likely to be automated away to some extent and other further jobs lost to automation.

i wouldn't bank on these 'legacy' jobs coming back to any significant degree.

i would also not depend on companies. a job for life has long gone and there is no loyalty towards the employee. make sure you have a backup plan!
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  #33  
Old 04.03.2021, 18:45
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Re: Covid redundacies - will the Swiss job market reabsorb the workers?

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My employer made a survey among employees and modified contracts to include home office. There's a estimate than office space can be reduced by 50% with all the employees willing to work from home most of time and having hot-desks at company HQ when needed. The employee contracts are ready, the only thing missing is the expiration of the office rental contract. .
„Hot-Desking“?! Seriously: fight it! Fight it with fire! It’s the single most toxic thing I have experienced in the workplace and it has been repeatedly proven to not work. It was invented by Manhattan based consulting companies- essentially the highest price for office space meeting an industry where employees are supposed to be not in the office but at their customers... guess what: even they stopped doing it. There is nothing more stupid than letting adults go and find a new desk every time they go to the office. The cost savings are in the end no match for the loss of productivity. I know it sounds like a good plan but it really just isn’t. Scientifically proven so... I don’t understand why it still keeps on popping up as a „new“ idea every year or two.
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  #34  
Old 04.03.2021, 19:08
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Re: Covid redundacies - will the Swiss job market reabsorb the workers?

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„Hot-Desking“?! Seriously: fight it! Fight it with fire! It’s the single most toxic thing I have experienced in the workplace and it has been repeatedly proven to not work.
Yeah, nothing says 'You're just a faceless replaceable cog in the wheel' like hot-desking.

Toxic doesn't even begin...
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Old 04.03.2021, 19:29
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Re: Covid redundacies - will the Swiss job market reabsorb the workers?

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„Hot-Desking“?! Seriously: fight it! Fight it with fire! It’s the single most toxic thing I have experienced in the workplace and it has been repeatedly proven to not work. It was invented by Manhattan based consulting companies- essentially the highest price for office space meeting an industry where employees are supposed to be not in the office but at their customers... guess what: even they stopped doing it. There is nothing more stupid than letting adults go and find a new desk every time they go to the office. The cost savings are in the end no match for the loss of productivity. I know it sounds like a good plan but it really just isn’t. Scientifically proven so... I don’t understand why it still keeps on popping up as a „new“ idea every year or two.
In my experience, people are generally sitting at the same desk but as they have to clean it up every day, they don't collect a lot of rubbish over years.

Pro-tip: reserve your favorite desk with a towel.
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  #36  
Old 04.03.2021, 20:05
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Re: Covid redundacies - will the Swiss job market reabsorb the workers?

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„Hot-Desking“?! Seriously: fight it! Fight it with fire! It’s the single most toxic thing I have experienced in the workplace and it has been repeatedly proven to not work. It was invented by Manhattan based consulting companies- essentially the highest price for office space meeting an industry where employees are supposed to be not in the office but at their customers... guess what: even they stopped doing it. There is nothing more stupid than letting adults go and find a new desk every time they go to the office. The cost savings are in the end no match for the loss of productivity. I know it sounds like a good plan but it really just isn’t. Scientifically proven so... I don’t understand why it still keeps on popping up as a „new“ idea every year or two.
Thanks for the advice! But the thread is months old. The employee organization (mitarbeiter_something) negotiated something better : total flexibility. Employees can choose between 0 and 100% home-office contracts. The ones that choose 100% time at the office will get one, the rest hot desk. Now the discussion is about how much extra we will get every month to pay extra electricity, a good internet we've never payed if we were not working at home, office supplies, etc. I'm sure I don't want to go daily to an office where the parking rate is 27 CHF per day.

I guess we'll just go to the office to integrate new team members, for some beers with colleagues when we get bored at home, and some very important meetings (2-3 times a year) when we want to show a customer the office. My only reason to go the office in the next weeks is to get a new laptop.

Last edited by Axa; 04.03.2021 at 20:15.
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  #37  
Old 04.03.2021, 21:31
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Re: Covid redundacies - will the Swiss job market reabsorb the workers?

I last had my own desk in 2008.

In the 4 years in my present role, I've had face-to-face meetings about 40 times. I even have calls with my colleagues sitting nearby because we also have people abroad in calls.

The irony is that my line management was against home office yet I was doing about 50% at home anyway. Along comes COVID and everyone's home office.

Frankly I don't care about operating costs at home, electricity, internet, etc. I've always had enough of that anyway to get by. I care about contributions for a computing device periodically so the company buys me a device that I then use to access the corporate environment.

What does do my head in is spending all the time at home given so many things are closed. But that's a life crisis and not a work crisis.

btw we did a virtual Zoom apero before Christmas where my big boss sent everyone champagne to enjoy. Small things go a long way......it was fun and funny.
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