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Old 10.01.2021, 00:47
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My EU-B permit is being forfeited due to unemployment?

Dear members,

Unfortunately this Christmas i got a "nice" present when my employer decided to terminate my contract. Basically, I was the victim of office politics because my supervisor was micro-managing me and after voicing my concerns to the department director she fired me on the grounds of "job unsatisfaction".

Well, not a great way to start the year, but let's remain positive. or not so much...

I have started this job 1st August 2020, so didn't make at least 12months on it to claim unemployment benefits. However, I have already requested a U1 form back in my home country to make the minimum time of work.

However, yesterday i got the following letter from the migration office:
The right of residence of nationals of the EU and EFTA member states with an EU / EFTA residence permit (B permit) expires six months after the involuntary termination of the employment relationship if it ends before the first twelve months of the stay (Art. 61a para. 1 AIG) . If unemployment compensation is still paid out after the six months, the right of residence expires at the end of the compensation (Art. 61a, Paragraph 2, AIG). In the period from the termination of the employment relationship to the expiry of the right of residence, there is no entitlement to social assistance (Art. 61a para. 3 AIG).

According to Art. 24 Para. 3 of the Free Movement of Persons Agreement (FZA) Annex I, persons who have had an employment relationship of less than one year in the territory of a contracting party may continue to reside there, provided they have sufficient financial means for themselves and their family members so that they do not have to claim social assistance. In addition, the people must have health insurance coverage that covers all risks."

I was really confused and would like your help to clarify:
1. Despite my permit being valid until 2025, now I can only stay for 6 months from the termination date of my contract?
2. Despite being eligible for unemployment benefits, I cannot claim social assistance?
3. What is that of proving I have enough money so I don't request social assistance?

Best regards!
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Old 10.01.2021, 00:57
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Re: My EU-B permit is being forfeited due to unemployment?

1. Despite my permit being valid until 2025, now I can only stay for 6 months from the termination date of my contract?

Unless your unemployment benefits are paid out for longer than 6 months. Basically you have to leave once you are no longer being paid by RAV.... of course if you get another job before that happens, you're good.

2. Despite being eligible for unemployment benefits, I cannot claim social assistance?

No. But they are 2 different things.

3. What is that of proving I have enough money so I don't request social assistance?

It means if you have enough savings to live off that you're no going to ask for money from the state (outside of unemployment benefits).

Edit: Basically, you're gone if you need social assistance. If you can support yourself with RAV, Savings, New Job.... you're ok.
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Old 10.01.2021, 01:16
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Re: My EU-B permit is being forfeited due to unemployment?

Ah ok, I was afraid social assistance = unemployment compensation.

So yes, I can make at least 18 months in the last 24, so apparently, I will be entitled to 400 days' worth.
Meaning after those 400 days I will be out if no job yet.

What makes me angry is that everyone claims that an EU B-permit is not linked to the employer, but in some way that's false. Ok the employer's name is not on the document, and you can move jobs, but in case you lose the job you lose your right to stay in the country
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Old 10.01.2021, 08:50
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Re: My EU-B permit is being forfeited due to unemployment?

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What makes me angry is that everyone claims that an EU B-permit is not linked to the employer, but in some way that's false.
Actually an EU B-permit is not linked to an Employer. It is linked to Employment. Get another job and you keep your permit.

This is actually quite different than a non-EU B-permit linked to an employer. Then, if you lose your job you lose your permit.
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Old 10.01.2021, 09:52
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Re: My EU-B permit is being forfeited due to unemployment?

Letís clarify one point.: You donít have the RIGHT to be on the country, you have a concession (permit) to be here as long you fulfill linked criteria and also discretionary one....

Donít confuse it. Itís important to understand that someone with a concession to be here itís a guest and the policies, laws and criterias of admsibility can change and your concession be revoked.

Sorry, I have no intention to be harsh, just to highlight this point.


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Ah ok, I was afraid social assistance = unemployment compensation.

So yes, I can make at least 18 months in the last 24, so apparently, I will be entitled to 400 days' worth.
Meaning after those 400 days I will be out if no job yet.

What makes me angry is that everyone claims that an EU B-permit is not linked to the employer, but in some way that's false. Ok the employer's name is not on the document, and you can move jobs, but in case you lose the job you lose your right to stay in the country
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Old 10.01.2021, 10:23
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Re: My EU-B permit is being forfeited due to unemployment?

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Ah ok, I was afraid social assistance = unemployment compensation.

So yes, I can make at least 18 months in the last 24, so apparently, I will be entitled to 400 days' worth.
Meaning after those 400 days I will be out if no job yet.

What makes me angry is that everyone claims that an EU B-permit is not linked to the employer, but in some way that's false. Ok the employer's name is not on the document, and you can move jobs, but in case you lose the job you lose your right to stay in the country
Again, this depends on your circumstances. Say you have a job here, but you lose it. It could be that you also have some income from rental property/investment funds/etc which earn enough for you to not have to work here, even though you prefer to. In which case you can prove to the authorities you can support yourself without needing to go onto social assistance and would be able to keep your permit. After all, quite a lot of people move here without being employed.

The main criteria for the Swiss is that you can support yourself financially and not become a burden on the state. If you can do that, fine. If not, then yes, you're expected to pack up and leave - no matter how long you've been here or what permit you have. Only Swiss citizenship guarantees you the right to stay here no matter what your situation is.
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Old 10.01.2021, 10:38
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Re: My EU-B permit is being forfeited due to unemployment?

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Letís clarify one point.: You donít have the RIGHT to be on the country, you have a concession (permit) to be here as long you fulfill linked criteria and also discretionary one....

Donít confuse it. Itís important to understand that someone with a concession to be here itís a guest and the policies, laws and criterias of admsibility can change and your concession be revoked.

Sorry, I have no intention to be harsh, just to highlight this point.
Sorry but you are wrong. If Bunzli-land wants access to the EU single market (the richest market in the world with 500m potential customers), than the little village people need to accept that EU citizens have the right to enter and reside in Switzerland. Now I agree that you don't have any right to claim unlimited benefits and in reality most people leave if they lose their job due to the high cost of living here.
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Old 10.01.2021, 11:11
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Re: My EU-B permit is being forfeited due to unemployment?

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Sorry but you are wrong.
No, you are.
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Old 10.01.2021, 11:14
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Re: My EU-B permit is being forfeited due to unemployment?

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Sorry but you are wrong. If Bunzli-land wants access to the EU single market (the richest market in the world with 500m potential customers), than the little village people need to accept that EU citizens have the right to enter and reside in Switzerland. Now I agree that you don't have any right to claim unlimited benefits and in reality most people leave if they lose their job due to the high cost of living here.
What a stupid and ignorant comment.
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Old 10.01.2021, 12:16
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Re: My EU-B permit is being forfeited due to unemployment?

It's worth highlighting that even if you wanted to stay and were willing to go without social support they could still kick you out if you qualified for that social support and earn less than the "minimum social security pension". I don't know if that refers to pillar 1 or not.

So unless you've got rental income

Article 24

"2. Financial means shall be considered sufficient if they exceed the amount below which nationals, having regard to their personal situation and, where appropriate, that of their family, can claim social security benefits. Where that condition cannot be applied, the applicant's financial means shall be regarded as sufficient if they are greater than the level of the minimum social security pension paid by the host state."
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Old 10.01.2021, 12:23
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Re: My EU-B permit is being forfeited due to unemployment?

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Sorry but you are wrong. If Bunzli-land wants access to the EU single market (the richest market in the world with 500m potential customers), than the little village people need to accept that EU citizens have the right to enter and reside in Switzerland. Now I agree that you don't have any right to claim unlimited benefits and in reality most people leave if they lose their job due to the high cost of living here.
I fully agree with you, especially in a country like Switzerland that relies so much on a foreign workforce.

My point with this discussion is not to claim entitlement no never-ending RAV benefits. It's to question whether or not a person with his own funds can keep living here until finding the next job.

But yes, now I understand that a permit is a work authorization that indirectly allows you to live here too. Meaning if you lose the job you also lose to right to reside.
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Old 10.01.2021, 13:01
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Re: My EU-B permit is being forfeited due to unemployment?

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I fully agree with you, especially in a country like Switzerland that relies so much on a foreign workforce.

My point with this discussion is not to claim entitlement no never-ending RAV benefits. It's to question whether or not a person with his own funds can keep living here until finding the next job.

But yes, now I understand that a permit is a work authorization that indirectly allows you to live here too. Meaning if you lose the job you also lose to right to reside.
Again, no it doesn't. If you have other income then you can keep your permit.

"Type B EU/EFTA residence permit:
This permit is issued to EU/EFTA citizens holding a contract of employment of twelve months or unlimited duration and people who prove they are genuinely self-employed. Persons not in gainful employment are issued this permit if they can prove that they possess sufficient financial means to support themselves and their family and have taken out adequate accident and health insurance policies. The permit is valid for five years and can be extended."

Residing in Switzerland without gainful activity
Iíd like to spend time in Switzerland but not in order to work. Will I be granted authorization to stay?
To take up residence in Switzerland without pursuing a gainful activity, people such as pensioners, students, or those of private means need to register with the local authorities of the place they reside and apply for a residence permit for non-working persons. Registration has to be done 14 days after arrival at the latest. This type of residence permit will be granted if you can prove that you possess sufficient financial means for you and your family members not to have to rely on Swiss social security benefits. Financial means are defined as being sufficient if Swiss nationals in the same situation are not entitled to claim benefits. Furthermore, you need to show that you have taken out adequate accident and health insurance. Contact the appropriate cantonal migration authorities for detailed information."

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...ml#-1597848920

It's the other way around for EU nationals; the permit grants you the right to live here whether you have a job or not. It's just that most people aren't wealthy enough not to have to work.
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Old 10.01.2021, 13:02
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Re: My EU-B permit is being forfeited due to unemployment?

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I fully agree with you, especially in a country like Switzerland that relies so much on a foreign workforce.

My point with this discussion is not to claim entitlement no never-ending RAV benefits. It's to question whether or not a person with his own funds can keep living here until finding the next job.

But yes, now I understand that a permit is a work authorization that indirectly allows you to live here too. Meaning if you lose the job you also lose to right to reside.
As an EU citizen, you totally have the right to live in Switzerland without a job, but you need enough savings/wealth to support yourself.
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Old 10.01.2021, 14:23
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Re: My EU-B permit is being forfeited due to unemployment?

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Sorry but you are wrong. If Bunzli-land wants access to the EU single market (the richest market in the world with 500m potential customers), than the little village people need to accept that EU citizens have the right to enter and reside in Switzerland. Now I agree that you don't have any right to claim unlimited benefits and in reality most people leave if they lose their job due to the high cost of living here.
The USA is the largest market in the world (or China depending on the definition)
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Old 10.01.2021, 15:01
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Re: My EU-B permit is being forfeited due to unemployment?

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Sorry but you are wrong. If Bunzli-land wants access to the EU single market (the richest market in the world with 500m potential customers), than the little village people need to accept that EU citizens have the right to enter and reside in Switzerland. Now I agree that you don't have any right to claim unlimited benefits and in reality most people leave if they lose their job due to the high cost of living here.
It's 450m potential customers - the UK left, remember?
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Old 11.01.2021, 17:48
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Re: My EU-B permit is being forfeited due to unemployment?

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As an EU citizen, you totally have the right to live in Switzerland without a job, but you need enough savings/wealth to support yourself.
How much is enough for a single person with no kids? Is having cash in the account enough given that you can spend it and move it offshore?
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Old 11.01.2021, 17:52
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Re: My EU-B permit is being forfeited due to unemployment?

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How much is enough for a single person with no kids? Is having cash in the account enough given that you can spend it and move it offshore?
Moving cash offshore doesn't make any difference to its ability to support you.

Let's say you need 60k to support yourself, at 5% usable return on investment you'd need 1.2 million in savings.

(The 5% is somewhere near the conversion rate for pension savings, which seems a reasonable baseline the authorities would use)
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Old 11.01.2021, 18:50
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Re: My EU-B permit is being forfeited due to unemployment?

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Moving cash offshore doesn't make any difference to its ability to support you.

Let's say you need 60k to support yourself, at 5% usable return on investment you'd need 1.2 million in savings.

(The 5% is somewhere near the conversion rate for pension savings, which seems a reasonable baseline the authorities would use)
Does it really work like that? I would have thought having 60K in the bank as liquid cash would allow you one years permit and so on...

Are you suggesting that in order to be self sufficient and continue the permit you need to find 1.2MM?
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Old 11.01.2021, 19:03
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Re: My EU-B permit is being forfeited due to unemployment?

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Does it really work like that? I would have thought having 60K in the bank as liquid cash would allow you one years permit and so on...

Are you suggesting that in order to be self sufficient and continue the permit you need to find 1.2MM?
I think newtoswitz is thinking of people who want to move here and not work at all, so they need to prove a hefty sum in the bank in order to get a permit.

Based on posts i've seen here, 60k in the bank should be more than sufficient to get at least a 1-year permit.

Also I might have missed someone posting it above but receiving unemployment benefits is NOT social assistance.
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Old 11.01.2021, 19:06
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Re: My EU-B permit is being forfeited due to unemployment?

Per the bilateral agreements, EEA / EU countries operate the same FOM rules as Switzerland. You are allowed to reside self-supported for a limited period to look for gainful employment. After that it is ďadiosĒ.

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Sorry but you are wrong. If Bunzli-land wants access to the EU single market (the richest market in the world with 500m potential customers), than the little village people need to accept that EU citizens have the right to enter and reside in Switzerland. Now I agree that you don't have any right to claim unlimited benefits and in reality most people leave if they lose their job due to the high cost of living here.
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