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  #21  
Old 25.02.2021, 07:33
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Re: How is the job market doing throughout Covid?

In my area, IT in a financial services related, absolutely no different.

Apart from the remote process, our hiring is exactly the same, and I don't think we've seen much difference in the candidates available.

Maybe a little less fluidity overall, as people are probably not wanting to move and find the situation gets worse, but not significant.
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  #22  
Old 25.02.2021, 09:34
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Re: How is the job market doing throughout Covid?

In the purchasing dep. there is heavy pressure, not many jobs, lots of competition and trouble due to the wishlist of some companys.
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  #23  
Old 25.02.2021, 09:59
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Re: How is the job market doing throughout Covid?

I know quite a few people who are out of work and have been looking for nearly a year with no success. However, a lot of these people are 45+, don't speak German, and aren't in IT/ banking, so I guess their profile is not ideal.

Personally, my company (FMCG) has been doing relatively fine, nobody has been laid off or put on kurzarbeit, and we are still recruiting. The only difference is that bonuses have been capped and salary increases have pretty much been frozen for the moment.
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  #24  
Old 25.02.2021, 13:32
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Re: How is the job market doing throughout Covid?

As usual, the answer is it depends on branch and many other factors already mentioned above. For instance, in my late 40’s, I get contacted regularly by recruiters offering contract jobs for 6 months in engineering. I think that contracting will never die, despite big corporates not hiring for permanent jobs as much as they used to. Never seen a problem here, as I can easily operate by being a contractor and regulating my own working time. Not to mention that if there’s no job on the market at certain difficult times, the unemployment office can always compensate those unfortunate periods. This way, I can last until my early retirement days (hopefully somewhere warm and away from CH). Win win situation.
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  #25  
Old 25.02.2021, 13:36
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Re: How is the job market doing throughout Covid?

Really depends... my industry is exploding... we are struggling to find enough candidates; and those we find usually already have 1-2 other offers.

We're now using headhunters to get people...

That said, some of my clients are now saying "huh, we can work remotely. So why don't we nearshore/offshore/outsource?"... So I expect there to be a dip in the future as more roles are migrated to lower cost locations...
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  #26  
Old 26.02.2021, 01:27
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Re: How is the job market doing throughout Covid?

I see outsourcing being the scourge of Switzerland for this decade.
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  #27  
Old 26.02.2021, 09:09
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Re: How is the job market doing throughout Covid?

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So, I sent 4 applications, got 2 interviews + the others haven't rejected me yet. The market seems not as dead as many say... There are not so many openings advertised, that's true, but my success rate is far higher than it was a couple of years ago.

Not a high-flier, just swiss PhD + a few years work exp here.
Wow, that is spectacular. Really I sent hundreds of applications and got maybe three interviews and no job. I have 30+ years experience + degree and I am in IT.
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  #28  
Old 26.02.2021, 10:17
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Re: How is the job market doing throughout Covid?

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Really depends... my industry is exploding... we are struggling to find enough candidates; and those we find usually already have 1-2 other offers.

We're now using headhunters to get people...

That said, some of my clients are now saying "huh, we can work remotely. So why don't we nearshore/offshore/outsource?"... So I expect there to be a dip in the future as more roles are migrated to lower cost locations...
Which field is that?

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Wow, that is spectacular. Really I sent hundreds of applications and got maybe three interviews and no job. I have 30+ years experience + degree and I am in IT.
Well, we are in very different career stages and fields (mine is engineering, not IT)
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  #29  
Old 26.02.2021, 10:25
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Re: How is the job market doing throughout Covid?

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I see outsourcing being the scourge of Switzerland for this decade.
Perhaps for IT, even though some banks still have to hire people here because of data privacy regulations (some type of data MUST stay and be processed on CH/EU servers, so outsourcing is not an option, even if it totally makes sense). Perhaps the same thing with some other companies' strictly confidential data policies.

Plus, you will still be able to attract best talent in CH. I.e. where I currently work, we have "twin" departmants in India and China doing the same stuff as we do, which are much cheaper. Yet, the tangible results show that output/dollar is still higher in CH.

Reminded me of this:

https://youtu.be/s5f8hjzxmkA
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  #30  
Old 26.02.2021, 10:32
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Re: How is the job market doing throughout Covid?

that's the best video EVER

ps: the best kurzgesagt about our societies and life
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  #31  
Old 26.02.2021, 10:47
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Re: How is the job market doing throughout Covid?

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Which field is that?
Cyber

I keep seeing people say "privacy" or "GDPR" or similar, and wanting to keep things in Switzerland, but it's proven easy to move 90% of the work abroad with sufficient controls.

In fact, I specialize in pharma - so we have a fair amount of regulations on data protection (patient data in particular)... but still, I'm seeing pharma move most of the IT function out.
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  #32  
Old 26.02.2021, 11:51
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Re: How is the job market doing throughout Covid?

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I see outsourcing being the scourge of Switzerland for this decade.
Thats what people have been saying since the late 90s...
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  #33  
Old 26.02.2021, 12:16
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Re: How is the job market doing throughout Covid?

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I see outsourcing being the scourge of Switzerland for this decade.
I had an interesting call this week. Someone asked my price, I replied with my Swiss hourly rate. Of course I was expensive and they had currency risk because 99% of projects are contracted and payed in USD. But, what if I outsource myself to another country where I can offer a better rate in USD? I won't do it tomorrow or next year, but it sounds like an interesting plan. If I offer 10-15% lower hourly rate from other country with lower cost of life, I can already make them think it twice.

After all, we're auslanders, we can outsource ourselves. Why not return home and keep the client happy with marginally lower rates? Where's the suffering on this?
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  #34  
Old 26.02.2021, 16:10
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Re: How is the job market doing throughout Covid?

I see the following danger. You will offer them 15% less that the Swiss rate.
They will expect for example maybe 50% less than the Swiss rate for that country.
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Old 26.02.2021, 16:37
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Re: How is the job market doing throughout Covid?

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I see the following danger. You will offer them 15% less that the Swiss rate.
They will expect for example maybe 50% less than the Swiss rate for that country.
It's no danger. It's called negotiation.
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  #36  
Old 26.02.2021, 16:54
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Re: How is the job market doing throughout Covid?

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I had an interesting call this week. Someone asked my price, I replied with my Swiss hourly rate. Of course I was expensive and they had currency risk because 99% of projects are contracted and payed in USD. But, what if I outsource myself to another country where I can offer a better rate in USD? I won't do it tomorrow or next year, but it sounds like an interesting plan. If I offer 10-15% lower hourly rate from other country with lower cost of life, I can already make them think it twice.

After all, we're auslanders, we can outsource ourselves. Why not return home and keep the client happy with marginally lower rates? Where's the suffering on this?
Because presumably you're in Switzerland for a reason? Like the quality of life here, have family here, etc. If there's nothing keeping you in Switzerland, well, then there's nothing keeping you in Switzerland...
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Old 26.02.2021, 17:40
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Re: How is the job market doing throughout Covid?

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Because presumably you're in Switzerland for a reason? Like the quality of life here, have family here, etc. If there's nothing keeping you in Switzerland, well, then there's nothing keeping you in Switzerland...
Engineer's principle: if it's working, don't try to fix it. But if it breaks, there are options like offering lower rates from somewhere else. I got here in here in first place after getting fired and thinking what to do in life. I'm conservative, I don't like change, but if change comes again there's nothing to do but face it. The point is not worrying about outsourcing because we can do it too.

I may have an hypertrophied sense of agency. So far, it has helped. If one day that stupid sense of agency becomes a liability, well....time to fix it.
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  #38  
Old 26.02.2021, 17:42
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Re: How is the job market doing throughout Covid?

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After all, we're auslanders, we can outsource ourselves. Why not return home and keep the client happy with marginally lower rates? Where's the suffering on this?
Because that strategy isn’t sustainable- why would I pay 85% of a Swiss rate for someone in a lower cost country? Unless you have something unique to offer do you compete then with locals willing to work for less as well as „real“ outsourcing to places like Ukraine where tons of qualified IT folks are happy with 25 CHF an hour... it’s a slippery slope in a race to the bottom.
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  #39  
Old 26.02.2021, 18:08
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Re: How is the job market doing throughout Covid?

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Because that strategy isn’t sustainable- why would I pay 85% of a Swiss rate for someone in a lower cost country? Unless you have something unique to offer do you compete then with locals willing to work for less as well as „real“ outsourcing to places like Ukraine where tons of qualified IT folks are happy with 25 CHF an hour... it’s a slippery slope in a race to the bottom.
OK, got it. I'll try to worry about losing my job in CH and not knowing what to do next because there's nothing better.
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Old 26.02.2021, 18:36
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Re: How is the job market doing throughout Covid?

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OK, got it. I'll try to worry about losing my job in CH and not knowing what to do next because there's nothing better.
Obviously, that’s not the way. The simple truth is that outsourcing has been around for a while... and in the vast majority of projects failed miserably. Yes, new technology makes it easier but I don’t think there will a mass exodus of IT specialists any time soon. I believe that the whole “lower your rate or we move the whole project to Poland” is just a threat used to negotiate prices down.

But when it comes to what to do: there are well documented and discussed trends in automation as well as outsourcing. Look at them in regards or your specific job and learn new things that help you to future proof your work. Very hard to generalize it but in essence do most outsourcing projects fail due to communication and business know how. If you don’t “just” know IT but also understand the industry and business your employer is in... you will be much safer. If you can also talk to business users and understand them (imagine doing that in Swiss German...) will you be hard to outsource.
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