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  #61  
Old 14.02.2021, 11:42
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Re: Do teachers/professors have vacations when kids have it?

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Take the afternoon off or is it the whole day?
Depends on the Canton, just like every thing else in this country.
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Old 14.02.2021, 11:42
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Re: Do teachers/professors have vacations when kids have it?

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Yes, I learned that from my Mum, who was a teacher. But what do teachers in Switzerland do on Wednesday?
They teach in the morning and do marking and prep in the afternoons if they teach in primary or lower secondary. Lycées, tech schools and other post obligatory schools don’t have Wednesday afternoons off.

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Depends on the Canton, just like every thing else in this country.
Not just the canton but the level they teach.
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Old 14.02.2021, 11:47
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Re: Do teachers/professors have vacations when kids have it?

Since folks here seem to agree that school teachers are indeed off when the kids are: I don’t believe any of them are, and I am quite certain that many are not. Far from it. Those in our Gymi had structured, compulsory prep/training courses in the autumn holidays. As for days off during term time, I do agree it makes one wonder why it isn’t possible to have them during the holidays in primary school. In a Gymi, obviously one cannot hold an entrance exam or a Notenkonvent (deciding on grades, including who is going to fail) outside term time. It‘s easy to jump to conclusions about such „visible“ jobs. There is a lot more to them than meets the eye. Almost all teachers I have known, both professionally and privately, were and are people who take or took their work seriously, and who somehow manage/d to keep a genuine affection for most of the young people in their care, no matter what. (One works with young convicts.) It may have something to do with the fact that we live in a very mixed quarter that means teaching here is a challenge, what with all the different backgrounds and languages and a huge span from very fast to very slow students. If there are minimalistic teachers, they‘re elsewhere.
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  #64  
Old 14.02.2021, 11:49
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Re: Do teachers/professors have vacations when kids have it?

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How does VD do compared to them?
follow the Link, click on Lohntabelle 2021

https://www.arbeitgeber.bs.ch/arbeit...dingungen.html

Primary + Sek 1 level LK 16
Sek 2 17
Gymi 18

Can't tell much about tertiary schools, most likely18 as well
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Old 14.02.2021, 11:50
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Re: Do teachers/professors have vacations when kids have it?

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Yes it's decent, but not if we compare it to others with a FH degree.
You can imagine that I was the target of a quiet some banter when I started as a teacher, in those instances I gave them the link to my teachers school and mentioned the shortage of teachers (especially in Berne .... , not really surprising).

You play the cello? I'd like to restart when I'm done with my A level teaching diploma (Berufsmatura)
Is that Sek II ? Are you spreading it over a few years, I imagine? No 3rd baby

BEJUNE PFH has a great reputation here.

Didn't know other FHs salaries are different from us. Arnaque! And then women earn less I can also safely assume.
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Old 14.02.2021, 11:53
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Re: Do teachers/professors have vacations when kids have it?

I don't know about all teachers in Switzerland, but I have an hourly rate and a set number of hours per year which I need to work, with the salary split evenly across the months. So for each of the 39 teaching weeks I have a certain number of rostered hours in which I must be present in the school (usually in the classroom, but there are some scheduled meeting times) and then "flexible hours" which can be used before or after school, on weekends, or during the holidays.
Yes, I have a spreadsheet on which I track my flexible hours, and generally in a year I go over - unpaid overtime is common, although I have seen colleagues over the years who somehow don't even get near going over ... and parents are usually happy when teachers like that move on and somebody more dedicated comes along, who at least uses most or all of the flexible hours to correct, plan, and prepare work.

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Yes, I learned that from my Mum, who was a teacher. But what do teachers in Switzerland do on Wednesday?
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Take the afternoon off or is it the whole day?
Since it's the only half-day on which there are no children in the classrooms (although there is after-school care in many schools), generally this is when there are whole-staff and team meetings, to plan and coordinate everything.

I mean, you can't just call a meeting at any time that you like during the day, as children can't just be saved and closed neatly on the desktop (or in folders - they don't fit very well!).

Personally I think Friday would be a better day for this, so we can review a full and week and plan the next full week, and many parents would be grateful at being able to head off to their weekend trips earlier. I mean, there are some parents who do this already ...
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  #67  
Old 14.02.2021, 11:58
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Re: Do teachers/professors have vacations when kids have it?

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Is that Sek II ? Are you spreading it over a few years, I imagine? No 3rd baby

BEJUNE FH has a great reputation here.

Didn't know other FHs salaries are different from us. Arnaque! And then women earn less I can also safely assume.
The 6 k in Berne is for primary school teachers in Berne. That would hardly be enough for a third child yes :/

You can't assume that, nope. Every vocational school teacher is Lohnklasse 17 and starts with Erfahrungsstufe C. Previous teaching expirience will only be taken into account (resulting in a higher Erfahrungsstufe), if you actually taught at a vocational school. This is actually the system with the least potential for salary discrimination I've ever met.
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Old 14.02.2021, 11:59
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Re: Do teachers/professors have vacations when kids have it?

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Full time pay for a part time job, what's not to like
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.........
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Old 14.02.2021, 12:02
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Re: Do teachers/professors have vacations when kids have it?

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And comparing teachers to medical staff is an insult to doctors - night shifts and weekends, 50-60 hours of sustained work, where you are always, constantly 1 mistake away from killing somebody, ending your career, ruining you financially and possibly also jail time (which are real threats, any seasoned doctor has been dragged through a court or two by disgruntled patient/family suing for half a million or two).
I beg to differ. Docs are free to leave hospitals after their training years and most do. Teachers have far less possibilities to influence or create their own work environment. Where I live, the schools contribute vitally to the integration of immigrants. And I mean this on every level that you can (or can‘t) imagine. Take sex ed. Is that what it‘s called in English? One pupil with eight siblings proudly proclaimed he was never going to use a condom. Two breaths later, he proclaimed, with equal confidence, that all women could do was have tons of babies. The teachers in that class were women. He got a good talking-to. I am grateful that I never have to do that. Incidentally, I have never been sued, and to the best of my knowledge, neither has any of my numerous friends and relatives in the medical profession. While we all make mistakes, patients understand that to err is human, and usually only get annoyed enough to sue when a pretty bad mistake is compounded by worse communication, e.g. trying to cover it up.
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Old 14.02.2021, 12:08
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Re: Do teachers/professors have vacations when kids have it?

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The 6 k in Berne is for primary school teachers in Berne. That would hardly be enough for a third child yes :/

You can't assume that, nope. Every vocational school teacher is Lohnklasse 17 and starts with Erfahrungsstufe C. Previous teaching expirience will be added, if you actually taught at a vocational school. This is actually the system with the least potential for salary discrimination I've ever met.
Sek II - I meant are you upping your degree by adding a license for Sek II. teaching, here it is for Gymnase and is a Masters degree. (GE PFH Sek I and II isn't split, for example, in VD it is split). It is intense and if studying full time, you cannot work. All but one Sek II teacher students I know spead it over a few years.

For the rest you wrote - it is the similar calculation as here, I agree it is very clear-cut. My outrage was about FHs - are PFHs grads making less than other FHs grads? Is that what you meant?
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Old 14.02.2021, 13:50
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Re: Do teachers/professors have vacations when kids have it?

I suppose when you love children it is a privilege to work with them?
I can't imagine why anyone would choose teaching if it wasn't for that.Graduates know they can earn a lot more if they choose the industry.Social prestige....well, defo not as before.
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Old 14.02.2021, 14:35
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Re: Do teachers/professors have vacations when kids have it?

What I don't understand is, why school materials, docs, tests, and test marking, aren't centralised. The curriculum is defined by the Canton, so should the means to get there as well as the controls. Shouldn't they?

Not only would that unburden teachers, it would also simplify actually getting there. Swiss polling data show that, for instance, older teachers have much more problems coping with contemporary demands, certainly that would lessen the problems.

Any ideas why that's not done? How's that done elsewhere?


ETA
With school materials I mean stuff produced by the teacher, handouts and documentation etc. Not books, pens, and whatnot.

Last edited by Urs Max; 14.02.2021 at 15:40.
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Old 14.02.2021, 14:39
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Re: Do teachers/professors have vacations when kids have it?

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I suppose when you love children it is a privilege to work with them?
I can't imagine why anyone would choose teaching if it wasn't for that.Graduates know they can earn a lot more if they choose the industry.Social prestige....well, defo not as before.
The industry's requirements may not be where the prospective teachers see their strengths or preferences.

It seems fair to say that teachers like to work with people. But these are jobs that don't scale well, and as a result tend to pay less than ones that do. That's why comparing a teacher to a position in IT makes zero sense, teachers are not engineers.
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Old 14.02.2021, 16:00
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Re: Do teachers/professors have vacations when kids have it?

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Yes it's decent, but not if we compare it to others with a FH degree.
You can imagine that I was the target of a quiet some banter when I started as a teacher, in those instances I gave them the link to my teachers school and mentioned the shortage of teachers (especially in Berne .... , not really surprising).

You play the cello? I'd like to restart when I'm done with my A level teaching diploma (Berufsmatura)
I played the cello for about 10 years, although not for 40 something years as I needed the money from selling the cello.
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Old 14.02.2021, 16:58
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Re: Do teachers/professors have vacations when kids have it?

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What I don't understand is, why school materials, docs, tests, and test marking, aren't centralised. The curriculum is defined by the Canton, so should the means to get there as well as the controls. Shouldn't they?

Not only would that unburden teachers, it would also simplify actually getting there. Swiss polling data show that, for instance, older teachers have much more problems coping with contemporary demands, certainly that would lessen the problems.

Any ideas why that's not done? How's that done elsewhere?


ETA
With school materials I mean stuff produced by the teacher, handouts and documentation etc. Not books, pens, and whatnot.
Because a good teacher adapts their material to the needs of their class. I am glad we have some freedom in what Materials we use. Not every material suits every teacher. Some freedom makes the job interesting

As for hours, a full time teacher has the same full time hours as in any other job. They are just unevenly distributed. During school holidays we can compensate for the overtime during term time.
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Old 14.02.2021, 18:21
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Re: Do teachers/professors have vacations when kids have it?

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The industry's requirements may not be where the prospective teachers see their strengths or preferences.

It seems fair to say that teachers like to work with people. But these are jobs that don't scale well, and as a result tend to pay less than ones that do. That's why comparing a teacher to a position in IT makes zero sense, teachers are not engineers.
We have an acquaintance here who went to teach in a secondary school after 10 years of working in IT. He's never been happier. He has a bunch of kids himself...
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Old 14.02.2021, 18:43
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Re: Do teachers/professors have vacations when kids have it?

So the OP asked the question, then just disappeared. I wonder what their motivation was.

The question is impossible to answer anyhow. What teacher, primary, secondary, post 16, tech school, uni, etc, etc, etc.

And in which country, Kanton, Canton ...

Private or State edu.

In the UK, those of us who taught State secondary/Post 16 edu taught a lot more than our narrow subject/s, but had a Tutor Group or Form, taught General Studies and PSE (personal and social education), and were contracted to stay in school for the whole school day, and to replace any colleague in case of illness or absence, for any subject.

In Switzerland, no tutor group/form, no PSE, and only contracted to teach 1 or 2 subjects and be free to go home whenever not timetabled, and never expected to replace colleagues.

As said above, a question that just cannot be answered unless the question is narrowed down.
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Old 14.02.2021, 18:59
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Re: Do teachers/professors have vacations when kids have it?

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In Switzerland, no tutor group/form, no PSE, and only contracted to teach 1 or 2 subjects and be free to go home whenever not timetabled, and never expected to replace colleagues.
My son had a tutor group/form every year throughout secondary school (class 8 through to 11 in the new numbering system).
The teachers were also required to replace colleagues who were not there for whatever reason if they didn’t have a lesson themselves.
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Old 14.02.2021, 19:00
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Re: Do teachers/professors have vacations when kids have it?

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What I don't understand is, why school materials, docs, tests, and test marking, aren't centralised. The curriculum is defined by the Canton, so should the means to get there as well as the controls. Shouldn't they?

Not only would that unburden teachers, it would also simplify actually getting there. Swiss polling data show that, for instance, older teachers have much more problems coping with contemporary demands, certainly that would lessen the problems.

Any ideas why that's not done? How's that done elsewhere?


ETA
With school materials I mean stuff produced by the teacher, handouts and documentation etc. Not books, pens, and whatnot.

Because standardised materials don't work - they need to be adapted to the students in front of you. Differentiation is key. Plus each eacher has their own style. Teaching from somone else's lesson plan can be like cooking in someone else's kitchen.


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Because a good teacher adapts their material to the needs of their class. I am glad we have some freedom in what Materials we use. Not every material suits every teacher. Some freedom makes the job interesting

As for hours, a full time teacher has the same full time hours as in any other job. They are just unevenly distributed. During school holidays we can compensate for the overtime during term time.
This.

UK teachers (full time, state) are contracted for 195 days a year, 1265 hours of directed time (including teaching time, meetings, break/beforeschool/after school duty, parent's eves etc) but excluding any necessary planning or marking time needed to do the job.


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So the OP asked the question, then just disappeared. I wonder what their motivation was.

The question is impossible to answer anyhow. What teacher, primary, secondary, post 16, tech school, uni, etc, etc, etc.

And in which country, Kanton, Canton ...

Private or State edu.

In the UK, those of us who taught State secondary/Post 16 edu taught a lot more than our narrow subject/s, but had a Tutor Group or Form, taught General Studies and PSE (personal and social education), and were contracted to stay in school for the whole school day, and to replace any colleague in case of illness or absence, for any subject.

In Switzerland, no tutor group/form, no PSE, and only contracted to teach 1 or 2 subjects and be free to go home whenever not timetabled, and never expected to replace colleagues.

As said above, a question that just cannot be answered unless the question is narrowed down.
This.
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Old 14.02.2021, 19:01
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Re: Do teachers/professors have vacations when kids have it?

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My son had a tutor group/form every year throughout secondary school (class 8 through to 11 in the new numbering system).
The teachers were also required to replace colleagues who were not there for whatever reason if they didn’t have a lesson themselves.
Great to hear from someone who has experience of this
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