Remote work from abroad (e.g.Italy) - Page 2

Susie-Q · #21 02.03.2021, 09:16

	Quote:	minimimi
	In that case it does not look too good for anybody. Most folks hardly pay any tax. Most of the tax is of high-earners, corporate and VAT/duties/etc. If less people earning high salaries then there is significantly less tax to redistribute to the rest...

As someone who just paid her and her husband's taxes, I can't agree with you there. Perhaps we are considered high earners?

My first thought about the two big companies in Basel that are moving many of their executive & non-executive level jobs abroad is, "How can the Swiss government allow this?". But really, how can they not allow it... not much they can do other than punish them when they come crawling back, but that would be shooting themselves in the leg. I do wonder why one of those companies continues to build those eye sore towers though...who will they have left to fill them?

eyebeebe · #22 02.03.2021, 09:16

	Quote:	minimimi
	I actually think this is primarily about client data, at least I've been told those working with bank client data cannot work from outside of Switzerland. I know people who could and who could not work from elsewhere. But some people did not leave last year Switzerland even for holidays in fear they could not return to their jobs.

	Quote:	Jim2007
	You don’t seem to understand the nature of banking.... There is a very simple reason why we do not allow access to Swiss bank data from outside Switzerland - you can be required by a court order in another jurisdiction to provide the authorities with access to our data etc.

As I wrote already, this isn‘t actually about client data. The OP has already said that he would be logging onto a virtual machine, which blocks client data being accessed (assuming he can even access it to begin with). The systems in place are robust. To repeat myself, the issue is social security and taxation for both employer and employees. Expensive consultants have been consulted on the topic. I am not opining from the outside. I am involved in this topic for my employer.

minimimi · #23 02.03.2021, 09:40

	Quote:	Susie-Q
	As someone who just paid her and her husband's taxes, I can't agree with you there. Perhaps we are considered high earners? My first thought about the two big companies in Basel that are moving many of their executive & non-executive level jobs abroad is, "How can the Swiss government allow this?". But really, how can they not allow it... not much they can do other than punish them when they come crawling back, but that would be shooting themselves in the leg. I do wonder why one of those companies continues to build those eye sore towers though...who will they have left to fill them?

I don't know how much you have paid and at what % you are but my understanding is that majority is pay 4 figure taxes. On the other hand top earners are paying 6+ figure taxes given that taxes rise very quickly after certain salary levels. It is difficult to do a real calculation given that we don't know that much about the distribution of top 10% incomes, but I'd say top 10% is definitely paying more than 50% of the taxes and possibly more than 80% from the income generated taxes (lots of other different taxes are out there).

Susie-Q · #24 02.03.2021, 10:21

	Quote:	minimimi
	I don't know how much you have paid and at what % you are but my understanding is that majority is pay 4 figure taxes. On the other hand top earners are paying 6+ figure taxes given that taxes rise very quickly after certain salary levels. It is difficult to do a real calculation given that we don't know that much about the distribution of top 10% incomes, but I'd say top 10% is definitely paying more than 50% of the taxes and possibly more than 80% from the income generated taxes (lots of other different taxes are out there).

I am paying well into the 5 figure taxes ... now if they would just please stop the marriage penalty as I am about to fake divorce my husband to save 20+,000 a year.

eyebeebe · #25 02.03.2021, 10:25

	Quote:	Susie-Q
	As someone who just paid her and her husband's taxes, I can't agree with you there. Perhaps we are considered high earners? My first thought about the two big companies in Basel that are moving many of their executive & non-executive level jobs abroad is, "How can the Swiss government allow this?". But really, how can they not allow it... not much they can do other than punish them when they come crawling back, but that would be shooting themselves in the leg. I do wonder why one of those companies continues to build those eye sore towers though...who will they have left to fill them?

	Quote:	Susie-Q
	I am paying well into the 5 figure taxes ... now if they would just please stop the marriage penalty as I am about to fake divorce my husband to save 20+,000 a year.

If the marriage penalty for your family is 20k+ then I think it‘s fair to say you are high earners.

Spinal · #26 02.03.2021, 10:35

	Quote:	Philipp
	Thanks for the responses. >>Client data / taking the laptop abroad. I understand CID is a no-go (except in Covid times). I would not take the Laptop, but work fully via a virtual desktop possibly with server in CH. >>Work permit in Italy. Yes, I am an IT citizen, I could work everywhere in the EU / CH. >>24.9% WFH thread Checked it out, but it did not help me too much. >>Permanent establishment and tax implications for the employer Yes I read a lot on this and it seems a minor risk if I would just sit at home and a working space would be available in CH - still employers seem to be reluctant to take this (small probability - high impact) risk. >>Job to PL / IN I am not too worried about this. Covid proved you can do almost everything remotely, so I am looking for a medium term solution - I do not extreme shifts to India within 5y. >> Social Security payments Some double taxation agreements exist, so in the worst cast I would pay the much higher IT tax I would assume plus a bit more for health insurance etc. I would however take a significant cut for the flexibility. ----------- My key problem is that I would like to spend more time with my family in rural Italy (5h drive to ZH), while also having an interesting job, which simply does not exist there. How about working as a business consultant and freelancing? Is it possible to get such a deal? Are such working arrangements really impossible to get? Can anyone think of employers outside of banking where it would be easier? Thanks for your contributions, Philipp

Be a bit careful with the Italian taxes - they've started looking at Italians abroad who have "forgotten" to register with AIRE, and thus are still registered as resident in Italy.

The "incentive" (for the non Italians reading) is that if you are registered as resident in Italy you pay substantially less taxes on your first house. That said, as a "resident" in Italy, you should be paying Italian income tax on your Swiss salary (double taxation agreements aside - so in theory you pay Swiss tax + the difference in Italy).

Until recently, the Italian government seemed quite passive, but I've heard (from my accountant in Turin) of a few people being asked to pay taxes for the years/decades that they were registered as "residents" in Italy (and thus paid less taxes in Italy), but were actually working abroad...

How they track this... no idea...

minimimi · #27 02.03.2021, 10:43

	Quote:	Susie-Q
	now if they would just please stop the marriage penalty as I am about to fake divorce my husband to save 20+,000 a year.

It's indeed annoying. I see you're in Bern, probably bad tax ratio for your income level. We are considering Zug/Schwyz but not sure how long we want to stay in Switzerland so not sure if it's worth to move for a couple of years, especially given the pandemic and actually our income is independent of Switzerland (comes from US) so we can easily move from job perspective.

greenmount · #28 02.03.2021, 10:44

	Quote:	kri
	I think you are right and at the same time it's not that simple. Many companies will have their exec in Ch as the taxation model of the company is such that the execs have to sit in CH or risk Corp Tax where they put the execs. Also, high salaries in Switzerland have a low on cost attached. For example no obligation to pay pension contribution on bonus, which is an obligation in other countries. And also of course, Switzerland offers the flex to sack anyone whenever with no costs attached. So if companies are a little savvy they will not start sending off all their staff. But then again we know companies often are not and some big shot may come up with an amazing cost saving plan including shipping everyone to Romania.... so let's see!.

Romanians pay high taxes on their incomes and from a company's point of view the fiscal cost per employee is quite high if you sum up pension, unemployment, health insurance contributions etc. I know that not only because I am one but my mom is an accountant. Except for the IT sector, they have amazing tax reductions. But we also have really cool start-ups in IT which probably wouldn't exist if the gov didn't make a really smart move here in order to retain our local graduates. We're a force in this field, well at least in the region. I found your comment quite entertaining..

Anyway, there's a tendency for younger expats to accept jobs in Eastern Europe and even if the salaries are lower, the cost of living is also way lower. Cost of properties also much lower. Now, I don't see that as a mass movement, mind, that moment has passed us long ago. I think there are way cheaper other countries where that may happen.
You may not be interested in what's going on in IT to name just one industry, but plenty of people are
http://www.outsourcingportal.eu/en/r...nal-playground

eyebeebe · #29 02.03.2021, 10:57

	Quote:	minimimi
	It's indeed annoying. I see you're in Bern, probably bad tax ratio for your income level. We are considering Zug/Schwyz but not sure how long we want to stay in Switzerland so not sure if it's worth to move for a couple of years, especially given the pandemic and actually our income is independent of Switzerland (comes from US) so we can easily move from job perspective.

Obviously the tax saving depends only your income level, but living in one of the Höfe villages in Schwyz you will also generally get more for your money if you are renting. If you are uncertain how long you will stay, I wouldn‘t recommend buying, but buying is also correspondingly cheaper (but normally little on the market).

minimimi · #30 02.03.2021, 16:32

Another option is freelancing. A friend started doing for a company he used to work for all while he lived in a number of significantly cheaper countries. He has been doing that for more than 10 years but he is kind of stuck with that company. We expect it wouldn't be easy if he'd to switch the job. Also not too much of negotiation space for pay increase, job security, all sorts of insurances, etc. Also I do not expect this do be possible for a classical bank..

Philipp · #31 02.03.2021, 22:17

Thanks for the helpful responses!

>> Tax registration Italy
I am registered in AIRE, everything is fine in that regards in the current situation, but >25% remote would have an impact, yes.

>> Freelancing

I was also considering that, however I am not sure how easy it is to broker such a deal with a big bank. There are not that many externals working for more than a project here.

>> Client data

Unless exceptions apply, this is forbidden to access from abroad, yes. As I said there would however also be feasible roles for me without access to client data.

>> Excecutive given UK contract

I think it always depends on how it is done in the end. Most employees are probably willing to take a certain % cut to get more flexibility and thus both the company and the employee benefit in the end. I think Covid showed that most jobs can be done remotely and are just protected by "technicalities" like insurance arrangements, data security policies etc.

>> Istcantabria

I sent you a pn to ask about your current employer. I am not 100% focused on banking and would also consider other occupations.

----------------------------------------

If anyone else has a concrete proposal to which "finance near" sector or company is open to such special arrangements or accepts multi year contracts with freelancers please keep up the discussion.
Else thank you for your comments!

Best,
Philipp

k_and_e · #32 02.03.2021, 22:30

I hope for the OP that he is the best employee that is critical and key for the company.
If not, he's creating the business case to off-shore his own job.