Remote work from abroad (e.g.Italy)

Philipp · #1 28.02.2021, 21:14

Hi all,

I currently work at a big bank in ZH basically fully in the home office since March 2020. Remote work is however strictly prohibited from abroad, even if no confidential data is involved.

My ideal solution would be to work partially remote from abroad for 1-2 days a week or e.g. alternating weeks?

Are there any boutique banks who offer this?
Is it possible to get a sweetheart deal from one of the big banks?
Would it be possible to negotiate such a deal by working in the same role as a freelancing business consultant?
Are other industries more open to such concepts? Any concrete suggestions?

I would like to focus the discussion not on the possible impact on my salary through additional social security contributions, but rather on the possibility of such work packages.

Thanks,
Philipp

PoppyGirl · #2 01.03.2021, 13:04

Very unlikley - The best you can do is go to italy and use your swiss mobile network to tether into the VPN - This will show your location as still Zurich

roegner · #3 01.03.2021, 13:10

	Quote:	PoppyGirl
	Very unlikley - The best you can do is go to italy and use your swiss mobile network to tether into the VPN - This will show your location as still Zurich

And if you are not allowed to work abroad and they find out you do, hell could break loose. There is a reason why some people are not allowed to work from a different country.....

Philipp · #4 01.03.2021, 13:14

I am not looking for an illegal workaround like a VPN - I would like to know if it is possible to get such a working arrangement etc. and whether there are some banks / other employers which take the additional effort to offer something like this.

st2lemans · #5 01.03.2021, 13:17

Do you have a work permit for Italy?

Tom

Axa · #6 01.03.2021, 13:27

	Quote:	Philipp
	Hi all, I currently work at a big bank in ZH basically fully in the home office since March 2020. Remote work is however strictly prohibited from abroad, even if no confidential data is involved. My ideal solution would be to work partially remote from abroad for 1-2 days a week or e.g. alternating weeks? Are there any boutique banks who offer this? Is it possible to get a sweetheart deal from one of the big banks? Would it be possible to negotiate such a deal by working in the same role as a freelancing business consultant? Are other industries more open to such concepts? Any concrete suggestions? I would like to focus the discussion not on the possible impact on my salary through additional social security contributions, but rather on the possibility of such work packages. Thanks, Philipp

I guess they don't want you to take the laptop out of Switzerland. They might be worried about another whistleblower running to foreign tax authorities with customer data. Or it's easier for a judge to request your computer outside Swiss borders. I guess managers sleep better if the contract says computers cannot leave Swiss borders.

I guess ask in a casual and subtle way about why remote work is strictly prohibited.

NotAllThere · #7 01.03.2021, 15:06

	Quote:	Philipp
	My ideal solution would be to work partially remote from abroad for 1-2 days a week or e.g. alternating weeks?

You're not worried about social security payment impact, but you could end up tax resident in both countries, which is usually an expensive pain.

runningdeer · #8 01.03.2021, 15:18

Have a read through this thread--https://www.englishforum.ch/permits-visas-government/299470-frontalier-moving-b-permit-avoid-24-9-working-home.html

The potential costs to the employer due to EU rules would probably make this impossible for most.

eyebeebe · #9 01.03.2021, 15:27

	Quote:	Axa
	I guess they don't want you to take the laptop out of Switzerland. They might be worried about another whistleblower running to foreign tax authorities with customer data. Or it's easier for a judge to request your computer outside Swiss borders. I guess managers sleep better if the contract says computers cannot leave Swiss borders. I guess ask in a casual and subtle way about why remote work is strictly prohibited.

It‘s not about client data. When I worked in a role with no access to client data, I took my laptop to the US with my boss’s insistence. It‘s about social security liabilities for both the employer and the employee and corporate taxation (permanent establishment).

OP beware if your job doesn‘t need to be done in Switzerland then it can also be done from Poland or India.

Philipp · #10 01.03.2021, 20:07

Thanks for the responses.

>>Client data / taking the laptop abroad.

I understand CID is a no-go (except in Covid times). I would not take the Laptop, but work fully via a virtual desktop possibly with server in CH.

>>Work permit in Italy.

Yes, I am an IT citizen, I could work everywhere in the EU / CH.

>>24.9% WFH thread

Checked it out, but it did not help me too much.

>>Permanent establishment and tax implications for the employer

Yes I read a lot on this and it seems a minor risk if I would just sit at home and a working space would be available in CH - still employers seem to be reluctant to take this (small probability - high impact) risk.

>>Job to PL / IN

I am not too worried about this. Covid proved you can do almost everything remotely, so I am looking for a medium term solution - I do not extreme shifts to India within 5y.

>> Social Security payments

Some double taxation agreements exist, so in the worst cast I would pay the much higher IT tax I would assume plus a bit more for health insurance etc. I would however take a significant cut for the flexibility.

-----------

My key problem is that I would like to spend more time with my family in rural Italy (5h drive to ZH), while also having an interesting job, which simply does not exist there.

How about working as a business consultant and freelancing? Is it possible to get such a deal?
Are such working arrangements really impossible to get?
Can anyone think of employers outside of banking where it would be easier?

Thanks for your contributions,
Philipp

roegner · #11 01.03.2021, 20:37

	Quote:	Philipp
	Thanks for the responses. >>Client data / taking the laptop abroad. I understand CID is a no-go (except in Covid times). I would not take the Laptop, but work fully via a virtual desktop possibly with server in CH. >>Work permit in Italy. Yes, I am an IT citizen, I could work everywhere in the EU / CH. >>24.9% WFH thread Checked it out, but it did not help me too much. >>Permanent establishment and tax implications for the employer Yes I read a lot on this and it seems a minor risk if I would just sit at home and a working space would be available in CH - still employers seem to be reluctant to take this (small probability - high impact) risk. >>Job to PL / IN I am not too worried about this. Covid proved you can do almost everything remotely, so I am looking for a medium term solution - I do not extreme shifts to India within 5y. >> Social Security payments Some double taxation agreements exist, so in the worst cast I would pay the much higher IT tax I would assume plus a bit more for health insurance etc. I would however take a significant cut for the flexibility. ----------- My key problem is that I would like to spend more time with my family in rural Italy (5h drive to ZH), while also having an interesting job, which simply does not exist there. How about working as a business consultant and freelancing? Is it possible to get such a deal? Are such working arrangements really impossible to get? Can anyone think of employers outside of banking where it would be easier? Thanks for your contributions, Philipp

Either you want the bucks you can make here or have the free time. Both seldom come together

irish_temptation · #12 01.03.2021, 21:03

Move to Ticino. That way you are still in Switzerland but closer to your family. Or Valais. Depending where yu have to go to. Thats your onlysolution

fortis · #13 01.03.2021, 21:16

	Quote:	Philipp
	Thanks for the responses. >>Client data / taking the laptop abroad. I understand CID is a no-go (except in Covid times). I would not take the Laptop, but work fully via a virtual desktop possibly with server in CH. >>Work permit in Italy. Yes, I am an IT citizen, I could work everywhere in the EU / CH. >>24.9% WFH thread Checked it out, but it did not help me too much. >>Permanent establishment and tax implications for the employer Yes I read a lot on this and it seems a minor risk if I would just sit at home and a working space would be available in CH - still employers seem to be reluctant to take this (small probability - high impact) risk. >>Job to PL / IN I am not too worried about this. Covid proved you can do almost everything remotely, so I am looking for a medium term solution - I do not extreme shifts to India within 5y. >> Social Security payments Some double taxation agreements exist, so in the worst cast I would pay the much higher IT tax I would assume plus a bit more for health insurance etc. I would however take a significant cut for the flexibility. ----------- My key problem is that I would like to spend more time with my family in rural Italy (5h drive to ZH), while also having an interesting job, which simply does not exist there. How about working as a business consultant and freelancing? Is it possible to get such a deal? Are such working arrangements really impossible to get? Can anyone think of employers outside of banking where it would be easier? Thanks for your contributions, Philipp

Wanna have your cake and eat it?

- if they grant you a specific treatment, everyone will want to jump in the train with both feet.
- in that case, the permanent establishment risk that was indeed inexistent as long as you were the only one suddenly becomes a real threat for the bank (and not only vis-à-vis Italy but everywhere an employee wants to spend more time with their family).
- why would they keep paying you a fat Swiss salary if you live in a much cheaper country? FYI the compensation for fully remote permanent positions are generally determined based on the location, which is only fair to everyone.

minimimi · #14 01.03.2021, 21:56

I actually think this is primarily about client data, at least I've been told those working with bank client data cannot work from outside of Switzerland. I know people who could and who could not work from elsewhere. But some people did not leave last year Switzerland even for holidays in fear they could not return to their jobs.

Then comes tax residence... you may want or not want to be more than half a year in Switzerland. Which country taxes how is complex and some are for nomad's advantage. I don't know Italy's rules...

Kittster · #15 01.03.2021, 22:02

	Quote:	eyebeebe
	It‘s not about client data. When I worked in a role with no access to client data, I took my laptop to the US with my boss’s insistence. It‘s about social security liabilities for both the employer and the employee and corporate taxation (permanent establishment). OP beware if your job doesn‘t need to be done in Switzerland then it can also be done from Poland or India.

And not by you, in case that wasn't clear.

Jim2007 · #16 02.03.2021, 00:24

	Quote:	Philipp
	I am not looking for an illegal workaround like a VPN - I would like to know if it is possible to get such a working arrangement etc. and whether there are some banks / other employers which take the additional effort to offer something like this.

You don’t seem to understand the nature of banking.... There is a very simple reason why we do not allow access to Swiss bank data from outside Switzerland - you can be required by a court order in another jurisdiction to provide the authorities with access to our data etc.

As for slipping over the border and remaining on the Swiss net, did you really think we did not think of that?... the techniques are not 100%, but there is a good chance you will get caught.

If you want to work remotely from outside Switzerland, don’t choose a bank.

Istcantabria · #17 02.03.2021, 04:41

I work for a company which is being very open on this and proactively exploring options to enhance flexibility of work internationally.

However in practice this is quite complex and even if they confirm there are no corporate tax implications or other business related constrains, you only have two options, either work abroad no more than 24.99% of your time or move to a local contract in your home country.

I am considering this second option, of course salary would be lower but still very good considering low cost of living and I may be open to accept this in order to live close to my family and friends.

Now with the pandemic, the situation is more fluid, the 24.99% rule is suspended and we have many associates working abroad but that is not going to be feasible in a few months when the situation is back to “normal”.

Susie-Q · #18 02.03.2021, 08:02

LOL - one of my best friends works as a senior executive for one of the largest corporations in Switzerland. The company has just asked to move her contract to her home country (UK), since this is the new cost savings global business model since the pandemic has shown that people can work from anywhere.

Good luck with that ... at this rate, all of us corporate workers will be lucky to still have jobs once this pandemic is over. Things aren’t looking good for us well paid workers in Switzerland.

minimimi · #19 02.03.2021, 08:33

	Quote:	Susie-Q
	LOL - one of my best friends works as a senior executive for one of the largest corporations in Switzerland. The company has just asked to move her contract to her home country (UK), since this is the new cost savings global business model since the pandemic has shown that people can work from anywhere. Good luck with that ... at this rate, all of us corporate workers will be lucky to still have jobs once this pandemic is over. Things aren’t looking good for us well paid workers in Switzerland.

In that case it does not look too good for anybody. Most folks hardly pay any tax. Most of the tax is of high-earners, corporate and VAT/duties/etc.

If less people earning high salaries then there is significantly less tax to redistribute to the rest...

kri · #20 02.03.2021, 08:51

	Quote:	Susie-Q
	LOL - one of my best friends works as a senior executive for one of the largest corporations in Switzerland. The company has just asked to move her contract to her home country (UK), since this is the new cost savings global business model since the pandemic has shown that people can work from anywhere. Good luck with that ... at this rate, all of us corporate workers will be lucky to still have jobs once this pandemic is over. Things aren’t looking good for us well paid workers in Switzerland.

I think you are right and at the same time it's not that simple. Many companies will have their exec in Ch as the taxation model of the company is such that the execs have to sit in CH or risk Corp Tax where they put the execs.

Also, high salaries in Switzerland have a low on cost attached. For example no obligation to pay pension contribution on bonus, which is an obligation in other countries. And also of course, Switzerland offers the flex to sack anyone whenever with no costs attached. So if companies are a little savvy they will not start sending off all their staff. But then again we know companies often are not and some big shot may come up with an amazing cost saving plan including shipping everyone to Romania.... so let's see!

OP - I see as your only straight option that to ask for a local contract in Italy. Continue same job but have a local contract so that all aspects are covered. Of course you will take a pay cut but as others have said it, cannot have it all and since you mention the interesting job, this may be a solution.