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Old 02.03.2021, 16:48
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Keeping RAV while switching to a work for foreign company

Hi, I am sorry if there was a similar question, I could not find anything.

I am working for a Swiss company for more than 18 months (paying RAV contributions). I got an offer from a foreign company. They are happy for me to work remotely from Switzerland. However, they would not employ me officially in Switzerland - they just want to credit a monthly salary to my bank account.

I would like to take a job offer, but it is quite risky (high probability to lose job in the next few months). Can I pay RAV contributions myself and remain eligible for the benefit? Would I qualify as self-employed if I accept this offer (and, therefore, not eligible for RAV)?

Can I still apply after a few months of quitting my current Swiss job based on the fact that I paid contributions in the past 24 months? I found this statement in the internet: "You must apply for your unemployment benefits within three months of losing your job, or else you could lose your right to claim your benefits." - can this be avoided somehow?

Many thanks for your help!
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Old 02.03.2021, 16:54
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Re: Keeping RAV while switching to a work for foreign company

Hi!

Question: you are currently employed by a Swiss company and are thinking of quitting in order to join a foreign company which appears to be risky (you stated high probability to lose job in the next few months)?

Where is the company located? Where (and who, you? The company?) will taxes and social charges be paid?

If you are self employed, you won't be able to get RAV benefits.
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Old 02.03.2021, 17:30
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Re: Keeping RAV while switching to a work for foreign company

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Question: you are currently employed by a Swiss company and are thinking of quitting in order to join a foreign company which appears to be risky (you stated high probability to lose job in the next few months)?
That's correct.

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Where is the company located? Where (and who, you? The company?) will taxes and social charges be paid?
The company has an office in London. It is a small start-up. Basically, they want to pay me monthly salary and let me handle taxes and social contributions by myself. They do not care which country I would live in, all job is remote.

Thank you!
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Old 02.03.2021, 17:39
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Re: Keeping RAV while switching to a work for foreign company

In order to be self employed in Switzerland you need 3 different customers.

Also, not sure which permit you are currently holding, or your nationality, but you might want to double check whether you would lose your current permit.

There are a couple of threads on this subject, you can look up self employment+permit in the search box.
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Old 02.03.2021, 18:07
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Re: Keeping RAV while switching to a work for foreign company

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In order to be self employed in Switzerland you need 3 different customers.
.
Thats not correct, it's quite possible to have zero customers as any business would on day 1, possibly having zero customers for several months. You need to be taking a risk to be self employed, going to work in a companies office using their computer is not taking any risk so working as a fake employee for 3 companies does not make you self employed.

I have worked as an employee for in excess 15 companies in 1 year, the shortest contract was 4 hours & they did pay pension contributions for that employment.
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Old 02.03.2021, 18:20
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Re: Keeping RAV while switching to a work for foreign company

Self employed (as independent) requires more than one customer.

"1. What does being self-employed mean?

In terms of social insurance, persons working for and on their own behalf, who are independent in their work and who assume the financial risk are self-employed. Self-employed persons have a company name (sole proprietorship, SA, SARL, etc.), their own infrastructure, draw up invoices in their own name, assume the risk of collection and work out their VAT. They decide on their organization, their method of working and outsourcing work to third parties. They work for more than one client"

https://www.bsv.admin.ch/bsv/fr/home...staendige.html

If we are talking about founding its own company, then it's another story.

I am Swiss so not sure about the whole permit implications, but without more details, on a personal note, I wouldn't leave a job that grants me a permit to work in a country for a risky job that could potentially pay me a lump sum for a couple of months and then leave me high and dry. But that's just me!
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Old 02.03.2021, 18:41
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Re: Keeping RAV while switching to a work for foreign company

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Self employed (as independent) requires more than one customer.

"1. What does being self-employed mean?

In terms of social insurance, persons working for and on their own behalf, who are independent in their work and who assume the financial risk are self-employed.

Self-employed persons have a company name (sole proprietorship, SA, SARL, etc.), their own infrastructure, draw up invoices in their own name, assume the risk of collection and work out their VAT. They decide on their organization, their method of working and outsourcing work to third parties. They work for more than one client"
The last bit doesn't specify 'at the same time', but I feel that in this case the OP would fall foul of the "independent in their work" criterion. No idea what you'd need in order to show said independence, but it seems unlikely that this situation would be accepted, if they were to be asked to prove it.
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Old 02.03.2021, 19:02
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Re: Keeping RAV while switching to a work for foreign company

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Hi, I am sorry if there was a similar question, I could not find anything.

I am working for a Swiss company for more than 18 months (paying RAV contributions). I got an offer from a foreign company. They are happy for me to work remotely from Switzerland. However, they would not employ me officially in Switzerland - they just want to credit a monthly salary to my bank account.

I would like to take a job offer, but it is quite risky (high probability to lose job in the next few months). Can I pay RAV contributions myself and remain eligible for the benefit? Would I qualify as self-employed if I accept this offer (and, therefore, not eligible for RAV)?

Can I still apply after a few months of quitting my current Swiss job based on the fact that I paid contributions in the past 24 months? I found this statement in the internet: "You must apply for your unemployment benefits within three months of losing your job, or else you could lose your right to claim your benefits." - can this be avoided somehow?

Many thanks for your help!
Assuming you have the appropriate permit to do this, then probably the easiest what would be through an umbrella company.
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  #9  
Old 02.03.2021, 19:23
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Re: Keeping RAV while switching to a work for foreign company

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Also, not sure which permit you are currently holding, or your nationality, but you might want to double check whether you would lose your current permit.
I am European national, Permit B for the next few years, no problems here.
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Old 02.03.2021, 19:25
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Re: Keeping RAV while switching to a work for foreign company

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Self employed (as independent) requires more than one customer.

"1. What does being self-employed mean?

In terms of social insurance, persons working for and on their own behalf, who are independent in their work and who assume the financial risk are self-employed. Self-employed persons have a company name (sole proprietorship, SA, SARL, etc.), their own infrastructure, draw up invoices in their own name, assume the risk of collection and work out their VAT. They decide on their organization, their method of working and outsourcing work to third parties. They work for more than one client"

https://www.bsv.admin.ch/bsv/fr/home...staendige.html

If we are talking about founding its own company, then it's another story.

I am Swiss so not sure about the whole permit implications, but without more details, on a personal note, I wouldn't leave a job that grants me a permit to work in a country for a risky job that could potentially pay me a lump sum for a couple of months and then leave me high and dry. But that's just me!
I know an ex forum member that set up self employed, her first years income were sub 1000 chf from 1 person, year 2 & 3 had a similar turnover with probably 5 clients in 3 years. If you really set up a 'business' you will not have any clients, same is true with a shop, a plumber, a builder. You have zero contracts when you start & wait for the phone to ring.
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The last bit doesn't specify 'at the same time', but I feel that in this case the OP would fall foul of the "independent in their work" criterion. No idea what you'd need in order to show said independence, but it seems unlikely that this situation would be accepted, if they were to be asked to prove it.
Being independent it's easy to prove, rent an office, get a website, liability insurance, possibly employ an assistant. It's about taking risk not working 40 hours a week in someone else office doing the hours they specify.
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Old 02.03.2021, 19:28
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Re: Keeping RAV while switching to a work for foreign company

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Assuming you have the appropriate permit to do this, then probably the easiest what would be through an umbrella company.
Interesting idea, thanks a lot!
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Old 02.03.2021, 20:34
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Re: Keeping RAV while switching to a work for foreign company

I think a company like this solves your problem. They would also take out deductions for social security, unemployment etc.

https://www.helvetic-payroll.ch/en/
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Old 03.03.2021, 08:06
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Re: Keeping RAV while switching to a work for foreign company

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I think a company like this solves your problem. They would also take out deductions for social security, unemployment etc.

https://www.helvetic-payroll.ch/en/

Good to know, I didn't know Swiss payroll services also covered foreign employers without any branch in Switzerland.
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Old 03.03.2021, 09:17
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Re: Keeping RAV while switching to a work for foreign company

I was in a similar situation as yours two years back ...

Two offers for a steady corporate job or a start up (although Swiss based) with a much more interesting role and flexibility. I went for the corporate one, as I was tired of job instability. The start up company no longer exists & due to some recent management/responsibility changes in my corporate job, I am quite happy where I am.

Best of luck, but in today's environment, I would go for the safe option until things settle down.
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Old 03.03.2021, 13:44
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Re: Keeping RAV while switching to a work for foreign company

Look up ANOBAG. Working through a payroll company/brolly would also work.

Since you will be paying the employers social deductions, you should make sure that the rate they offer is sufficiently high. If you were employed in the UK, they'd be paying 13.8% of your salary as employers' NI. You should insist that you get some of that.
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Old 03.03.2021, 15:11
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Re: Keeping RAV while switching to a work for foreign company

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Look up ANOBAG. Working through a payroll company/brolly would also work.

Since you will be paying the employers social deductions, you should make sure that the rate they offer is sufficiently high. If you were employed in the UK, they'd be paying 13.8% of your salary as employers' NI. You should insist that you get some of that.
And P2 retirement fund, another 10% or so!

Tom
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Old 03.03.2021, 15:27
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Re: Keeping RAV while switching to a work for foreign company

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And P2 retirement fund, another 10% or so!

Tom
In fact, I'm in a similar situation and am exploring the ANOBAG option.

The foreign company that made me an offer is based in the EU (they have offices in several European cities). I read that in this case, with the ANOBAG status, one must also contribute to pillar 2 (occupational pension scheme).

However, I have not been able to find any insurance companies that offer occupational pension scheme to individuals. Does anyone know where I can find such a scheme to join as an individual with ANOBAG status?
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Old 03.03.2021, 16:10
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Re: Keeping RAV while switching to a work for foreign company

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In fact, I'm in a similar situation and am exploring the ANOBAG option.

The foreign company that made me an offer is based in the EU (they have offices in several European cities). I read that in this case, with the ANOBAG status, one must also contribute to pillar 2 (occupational pension scheme).

However, I have not been able to find any insurance companies that offer occupational pension scheme to individuals. Does anyone know where I can find such a scheme to join as an individual with ANOBAG status?

Stiftung Auffangeinrichtung BVG, a quasi-governmental institution, offers pensions to Anobag employees. Please see FAQ 8 for information on the process (English):

https://web.aeis.ch/EN/pages/240/Vol...%20individuals
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Old 03.03.2021, 16:28
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Re: Keeping RAV while switching to a work for foreign company

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Stiftung Auffangeinrichtung BVG, a quasi-governmental institution, offers pensions to Anobag employees. Please see FAQ 8 for information on the process (English):

https://web.aeis.ch/EN/pages/240/Vol...%20individuals
Thanks for the link!

If I'm not mistaken, there are two kinds of occupational pension schemes (2nd pillar): 1) obligatory schemes (BVG) and 2) voluntary Substitute Occupational Benefit Institution (e.g. for self-employed people). And the one you provided via the link belongs to the second category. Is this correct?

According to the "Occupational pension: BVG as ANOBAG" part on this page, individuals with the ANOBAG status, whose company is based in the EU, MUST join the first kind of 2nd pillar (obligatory schemes/ BVG).

Where can I find obligatory ones to join? Am I getting something wrong here? I'm very confused.
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Old 03.03.2021, 16:47
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Re: Keeping RAV while switching to a work for foreign company

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Thanks for the link!

If I'm not mistaken, there are two kinds of occupational pension schemes (2nd pillar): 1) obligatory schemes (BVG) and 2) voluntary Substitute Occupational Benefit Institution (e.g. for self-employed people). And the one you provided via the link belongs to the second category. Is this correct?

According to the "Occupational pension: BVG as ANOBAG" part on this page, individuals with the ANOBAG status, whose company is based in the EU, MUST join the first kind of 2nd pillar (obligatory schemes/ BVG).

Where can I find obligatory ones to join? Am I getting something wrong here? I'm very confused.

Since your company is based in the EU, it would indeed be the BVG obligatory plan, as you correctly indicated. Please see FAQ at this link (German):

https://web.aeis.ch/EN/pages/340/Enrolment

- Your employer is considered a "BoAsch".
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