Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Employment  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 22.03.2021, 18:33
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Basel
Posts: 3
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
freefund has no particular reputation at present
How to choose Umbrella Company / Recruitment Agency

Dear All,

I interviewed for a job in big pharma and have been selected. They will hire me on 'unlimited contract' but on external contract. They will send job advert to all umbrella companies (Hays/Randstad/Manpower/Adecco, etc.) in a few days and will tell the one I choose that they have selected me already.

My future boss told me to contact some umbrella companies to choose who I want to be hired with. He has some existing team members on Hays contracts but he says that the choice of umbrella company is up to me completely.

How do I go about it? Is there any material difference between Hays/Randstad/Manpower/Adecco, etc in terms of:
- pension contributions?
- sick leaves, etc
- G permit (I am german citizen living in Lörrach)
- any other support

Is it possible that they offer very different salaries / hourly rates)? I understand that all of AHV (~10%), BVG/LLP (atleast 10%), sickness leave contribution, and taxes will come out of my hourly rate.

Should I contact many of them to ask for offers, or just I go with the one they suggested (Hays).

Thanks a lot,
Freefund
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank freefund for this useful post:
  #2  
Old 22.03.2021, 20:17
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 13,079
Groaned at 209 Times in 186 Posts
Thanked 18,973 Times in 7,731 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How to choose Umbrella Company / Recruitment Agency

Quote:
Is there any material difference between Hays/Randstad/Manpower/Adecco,
Don't know Randstad, but I was with Hays from when they set up in Basel and had no issues. I had a chocie of Hays/Manpower/Adecco.. I was unimpressed by Adecco. Not impresed by Manpower. Hay took me to lunch, and I've had many good lunches and aperos with them. They seem a cut above the competition.

As far as the other issues:
- pension contributions?
- sick leaves, etc
- G permit (I am german citizen living in Lörrach)
- any other support
it won't vary much.

But - talk to all of them.

I've a permanent job now, so I've no skin in the game and receive no benefit from Hays.
__________________
Down with racism. Long live miscegenation!
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank NotAllThere for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 22.03.2021, 23:04
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 596
Groaned at 35 Times in 27 Posts
Thanked 1,162 Times in 533 Posts
leonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How to choose Umbrella Company / Recruitment Agency

I have been contracting with Hays until recently, and also have some experience with SDE Services. Hays was OK, and SDE Services was excellent. I highly recommend SDE Services. And they charge less per hour than Hays.

What is “unlimited contract” that you are getting? Are you going to be a contractor paid by the hour? Unlimited contract sounds strange. The umbrella company will be paid for your work by the hour by the big pharma company, and from that money they will pay your monthly share. If the big pharma company stops using your services, then you will still formally be employed by the umbrella company until either your contract ends (which you say it doesn’t), or the umbrella company terminates the contract. You would have to rely on the umbrella company to terminate your contract on time.

I would look into this “unlimited contract” carefully.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank leonie for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 23.03.2021, 00:00
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,483
Groaned at 55 Times in 46 Posts
Thanked 1,685 Times in 977 Posts
Landers has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How to choose Umbrella Company / Recruitment Agency

Have you discussed rate with the pharma company? Is that what they pay to you and they will pay the payroll company or are you expected to pay for their services out of the rate? When I worked for the big N they covered all the payroll company fee and daily rate was open discussing with my manager.
As long as the payroll company is getting their fee things like pension etc are up to you. Vacation days are up to you and the client. It all comes out of your daily rate that was discussed with the client.

I don't think much of Hays as they're very untransparent. If you do have to pay their fees expect them to be high. SD E are quite likely to be the cheapest at from 50CHF per day but they are prone to making mistakes and not taking responsibility for them from what I hear and have experienced myself. Double check everything and I mean everything. Having said that I know that there's been some changes in-house so it could be the chances of mistakes are lower now. I would work with them again.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 23.03.2021, 00:09
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,483
Groaned at 55 Times in 46 Posts
Thanked 1,685 Times in 977 Posts
Landers has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How to choose Umbrella Company / Recruitment Agency

Quote:
View Post

What is “unlimited contract” that you are getting? Are you going to be a contractor paid by the hour? Unlimited contract sounds strange. The umbrella company will be paid for your work by the hour by the big pharma company, and from that money they will pay your monthly share. If the big pharma company stops using your services, then you will still formally be employed by the umbrella company until either your contract ends (which you say it doesn’t), or the umbrella company terminates the contract. You would have to rely on the umbrella company to terminate your contract on time.

I would look into this “unlimited contract” carefully.
It surely means that the client has no intention that the contract will be short-term but the reality is it's likely to be annual contracts both with the payroll company and with the worker. Sometimes pseudo-unlimited contracts are offered in order to obtain a B-permit instead of L.

Your comments about termination are true. I've heard of a few cases where the client has terminated with the payroll company but the payroll company overlooks to issue the worker with a termination either through incompetence, laziness, or a simple mistake. In theory if the payroll company doesn't do things in time they should pay you for notice period for which you're not working. There's one company I know has made this mistake on more than one occasion.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Landers for this useful post:
  #6  
Old 23.03.2021, 01:34
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 596
Groaned at 35 Times in 27 Posts
Thanked 1,162 Times in 533 Posts
leonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How to choose Umbrella Company / Recruitment Agency

Quote:
View Post
It surely means that the client has no intention that the contract will be short-term but the reality is it's likely to be annual contracts both with the payroll company and with the worker. Sometimes pseudo-unlimited contracts are offered in order to obtain a B-permit instead of L.

Your comments about termination are true. I've heard of a few cases where the client has terminated with the payroll company but the payroll company overlooks to issue the worker with a termination either through incompetence, laziness, or a simple mistake. In theory if the payroll company doesn't do things in time they should pay you for notice period for which you're not working. There's one company I know has made this mistake on more than one occasion.
To be honest, I would never sign the unlimited contract on the hourly rate. If the contract is unlimited, then the monthly salary should be given — this is basically a permanent position. The hourly rate contract got to be fixed term.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 23.03.2021, 09:09
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Basel
Posts: 3
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
freefund has no particular reputation at present
Re: How to choose Umbrella Company / Recruitment Agency

Thanks NotAllThere, leonie and Landers.

a bit more information:
- The company wanted me 100% on permanent contract, but due to personal reasons I cannot work more than 80%. They were first reluctant but got back to me saying that they could make a 80% 'unlimited' contract but externally. I also don't know what that means, or would look like on paper.
- The manager told me that the vendor will make me the offer of compensation.
- I think I'll ask the manager which other vendors they work with, contact multiple ones and ask for offers.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 23.03.2021, 09:38
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Basel
Posts: 42
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 35 Times in 20 Posts
basel has no particular reputation at present
Re: How to choose Umbrella Company / Recruitment Agency

Ask for a mock salary statement from all of them , this will give you a better insight on deductions.

One contracting company I was working for , paid lesser hourly rates but also paid on bank holidays, other paid higher hourly rates and did not pay on bank holidays.

It would also benefit you if you know rates your company is going to pay for these umbrella companies, you may check with your prospective new manager if he can share it with you.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank basel for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 23.03.2021, 10:08
robBob's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 2,678
Groaned at 52 Times in 39 Posts
Thanked 2,499 Times in 1,343 Posts
robBob has a reputation beyond reputerobBob has a reputation beyond reputerobBob has a reputation beyond reputerobBob has a reputation beyond reputerobBob has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How to choose Umbrella Company / Recruitment Agency

Check these places out:
https://www.accurity.ch/swiss-payroll/for-contractors/
https://www.bosshardpartner.ch/en/so...l-service.html
https://payrollplus.ch/en/freelancer/solution/

Also important is the pension company and plan involved.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 23.03.2021, 12:58
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,483
Groaned at 55 Times in 46 Posts
Thanked 1,685 Times in 977 Posts
Landers has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How to choose Umbrella Company / Recruitment Agency

Quote:
View Post
To be honest, I would never sign the unlimited contract on the hourly rate. If the contract is unlimited, then the monthly salary should be given — this is basically a permanent position. The hourly rate contract got to be fixed term.
All contracts through a payroll company are contrived to be a permanent position.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 23.03.2021, 13:07
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Zurich
Posts: 232
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 239 Times in 119 Posts
Spaceghost is considered knowledgeableSpaceghost is considered knowledgeableSpaceghost is considered knowledgeable
Re: How to choose Umbrella Company / Recruitment Agency

Another thing to watch out for is some umbrella companies will ask you upfront whether you want to pay bare minimum pension contributions or the 'norm' which could be around double the bare minimum.

Otherwise you can be a bit shocked when you get your first payslip and see 27% or so deducted for Pillar 1 and 2 contributions for both employee and employer parts of the equation.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 23.03.2021, 13:22
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,483
Groaned at 55 Times in 46 Posts
Thanked 1,685 Times in 977 Posts
Landers has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How to choose Umbrella Company / Recruitment Agency

Quote:
View Post
Thanks NotAllThere, leonie and Landers.

a bit more information:
- The company wanted me 100% on permanent contract, but due to personal reasons I cannot work more than 80%. They were first reluctant but got back to me saying that they could make a 80% 'unlimited' contract but externally. I also don't know what that means, or would look like on paper.
- The manager told me that the vendor will make me the offer of compensation.
- I think I'll ask the manager which other vendors they work with, contact multiple ones and ask for offers.
It's a bit odd that they haven't discussed with you the headline daily rate but it makes me think I know which company it is. The secrecy of it all leaves you open to being taken advantage of, especially by the bigger recruitment companies, but maybe the likes of Hays will be transparent and tell you their fees. Usually they don't. I also don't see how they can make you a salary offer if they don't know the rate. I always deal with the client as it removes this factor of the recruitment companies.
I would advise getting a proper contractor rate if they won't take you as a permanent, there's no reason really why they couldn't take you on 80% - many people do it. Then they have an official position within the company with the associated company benefits whereas you will not. Proper contractor headline rates would be about 900 per day +/-. This would then be before employer taxes and deductions. Out of that money you can usually decide what level of pension you want. Holiday days are again a contrived entity. You can decide how many days you want as long as the client is ok with it. It all comes out of your daily rate. The client wouldn't pay for your holidays but the payroll company would have built up a reserve of holiday pay for you. S d E will likely be the cheapest and most flexible option.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 23.03.2021, 14:32
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Zurich
Posts: 232
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 239 Times in 119 Posts
Spaceghost is considered knowledgeableSpaceghost is considered knowledgeableSpaceghost is considered knowledgeable
Re: How to choose Umbrella Company / Recruitment Agency

Quote:
View Post
It's a bit odd that they haven't discussed with you the headline daily rate but it makes me think I know which company it is. The secrecy of it all leaves you open to being taken advantage of, especially by the bigger recruitment companies, but maybe the likes of Hays will be transparent and tell you their fees. Usually they don't. I also don't see how they can make you a salary offer if they don't know the rate. I always deal with the client as it removes this factor of the recruitment companies.
I would advise getting a proper contractor rate if they won't take you as a permanent, there's no reason really why they couldn't take you on 80% - many people do it. Then they have an official position within the company with the associated company benefits whereas you will not. Proper contractor headline rates would be about 900 per day +/-. This would then be before employer taxes and deductions. Out of that money you can usually decide what level of pension you want. Holiday days are again a contrived entity. You can decide how many days you want as long as the client is ok with it. It all comes out of your daily rate. The client wouldn't pay for your holidays but the payroll company would have built up a reserve of holiday pay for you. S d E will likely be the cheapest and most flexible option.
This is a very important point - I would have got properly screwed had I not asked around a fair bit before coming here last year about a 'real' rate was here compared to London. A work colleague had been properly turned over accepting just over 700CHF a day and comparing it to London rates seemed okish for his job role, especially with IR35 around the corner so took it when he should have been aiming for 850-900.

I also know another guy who accepted around 130k on one of these perm/contract type umbrella deals and if he'd asked other guys on the same deal already at the same company he'd have found they were on 150k and the umbrella company is pocketing the difference in both cases.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 23.03.2021, 15:37
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 13,079
Groaned at 209 Times in 186 Posts
Thanked 18,973 Times in 7,731 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How to choose Umbrella Company / Recruitment Agency

Since you have the contract, you should definitely negotiate with the payroll company regarding fees. Without giving details I never found Hays' fee too high.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 24.03.2021, 09:26
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Basel
Posts: 3
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
freefund has no particular reputation at present
Re: How to choose Umbrella Company / Recruitment Agency

Thank you all for responses. After reading your responses, I wrote to manager asking which vendors will they advertise to and also to if they can tell me the hourly rate they'll pay to vendor.

They'll send it to Hays & Kelly (the vendors they normally use).

Concerning the hourly rate, it is the vendor who proposes a range to them (e.g. from xxx to yyy CHF per hour) and they agree or disagree with that proposed range. The range is based on the job description, my experience and education.

So some restriction of options already (whether it is good or bad I don't know yet)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
contractor advice, contractors, umbrella companies




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Start Company or use Umbrella? Pcummings Business & entrepreneur 6 26.01.2018 10:26
Recruitment agency in testing? mishimishi Employment 0 25.11.2012 16:52
Umbrella Company jsm66 Finance/banking/taxation 1 06.05.2010 17:29
legal for recruitment agency to ask your DOB Mike_D Business & entrepreneur 12 15.07.2008 12:24
Recruitment Agency Interview Iggy Employment 32 09.05.2008 10:34


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:45.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0