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  #21  
Old 08.04.2021, 09:30
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Re: Freshly terminated

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OP mentioned outsourcing, but if employer does not provide a reasons in writing pobably best to answer "do not know" or "unclear". But again, it is clear they terminate, it appears that this effect others in the org and no other job has been offered. I see no reason why OP would not get regular RAV withoit problems. Usual 5 or 20 day "waiting time" and off you go.
I would still be careful.

"as discussed" might raise a red flag with RAV ... "what did this guy do that employer didn't want mentioned in the letter"?

I would make sure that their version = the OP version; as somebody mentioned, employer will have to complete RAV form in order to receive payments. You have no idea what employer is going to say if you end up needing RAV, and if you don't have anything in writing, it's going to be difficult to prove that you are not at fault.

When I lost my job, even though termination letter was clear, I was asked to provide exchange emails with HR as well.

I made sure I wrote to HR after termination, to confirm that although my work was outstanding (their word, not mine) I was still let go. RAV was very pissed off at the employer so for the whole time during my RAV I was left alone
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  #22  
Old 08.04.2021, 18:41
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Re: Freshly terminated

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This what they stated: "For the reason explained to you verbally, we are forced to terminate...."
You're entitled to be given a reason. In writing. Preferably when given the boot as well as in the ArbeitsZeugnis. A simple 1-liner email of yours requesting such should do.

As for the compensating, that may be not so clear given the amount of holiday days involved. Holidays are there for your recuperation, hence the demand that at least two of the four annual weeks must be given/taken in one piece. That doesn't apply (fully) when you have to job-hunt.

Since you need to contact RAV ASAP anyways, ask them about their opinion. And specifically what they would say if you didn't job-hunt for 6 weeks (your holidays) of the 3-month notice, how that would affect your RAV payment and how that squares with the employer's position that the holidays are taken during the notice period.

You could then take it up with your employer, starting from the position that the entire holidays need to be paid out because you're busy hunting for a job; it's covid times after all. Expect them to try and haggle and getting your demand lowered, perhaps unless you have legal insurance.

As for the ArbeitsZeugnis, suggest to HR or your direct superior to help and formulating the parts yourself that describe what you did, and how well. Make sure stuff that was important for your job is mentioned with proper emphasis. It will help to have them explicitly mention that it isn't coded. Some employers have such a notice in the footer on each page, like, "dieses ArbeitsZeugnis ist nicht kodiert".
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  #23  
Old 08.04.2021, 18:57
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Re: Freshly terminated

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Holidays are there for your recuperation, hence the demand that at least two of the four annual weeks must be given/taken in one piece.
In 35 years I have done so at most half a dozen times.

Tom
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  #24  
Old 08.04.2021, 19:08
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Re: Freshly terminated

In case you want the legal reference for the right to a written reason for termination:

https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/2...377/en#art_335
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  #25  
Old 08.04.2021, 19:37
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Re: Freshly terminated

Thanks everybody for your advice.
I had a chat with the HR today and they agreed to change that statement to something more specific to the current restructuring phase.
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  #26  
Old 08.04.2021, 20:08
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Re: Freshly terminated

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Since you need to contact RAV ASAP anyways, ask them about their opinion. And specifically what they would say if you didn't job-hunt for 6 weeks (your holidays) of the 3-month notice, how that would affect your RAV payment and how that squares with the employer's position that the holidays are taken during the notice period.
Good advice but you don't have to contact RAV until the first day of your unemployment. If you get given notice, look for a new job and get one, RAV wouldn't have ever needed to have heard from you.
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  #27  
Old 08.04.2021, 20:22
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Re: Freshly terminated

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https://www.jobs.ch/de/job-coach/das...n-der-schweiz/

"Worth knowing: If the employer has not taken the necessary steps so that the employee can actually take his vacation, the employee may request that the vacation be paid in full again when terminating the employment relationship."

You may try that if your employer didn't ask you to use your holidays in the 3-months of your termination.
Where did you that quoted part? That could be interesting since nobody "invited" me to use my holidays.
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  #28  
Old 08.04.2021, 20:36
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Re: Freshly terminated

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Where did you that quoted part? That could be interesting since nobody "invited" me to use my holidays.
Page 12 https://www.unia.ch/uploads/media/Br...bruf_dt_A6.pdf - middle section - however should you ask "now" they simply tell you to take holidays however should you have been told to be "available" as per unwritten rules of "garden leave" which means you do not work however you may be called up to work anytime in that period - this is not assumed holiday.

You likley may need legal help here. My advise would be to let them know about it in last 10-days so they "still" have to make it good and have to think what to do with the rest - them doing nothing - gives you evidence you need for legal action likley .

This is not the legal advice

Last edited by hoover1; 08.04.2021 at 21:10.
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  #29  
Old 08.04.2021, 22:09
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Re: Freshly terminated

During garden leave, Swiss employment law is predicated on an expectation that the employee is focussed on job hunting rather than taking a holiday.

Swiss case law has established that an employer cannot oblige the leaver to utilize more than 1/3rd of the working days during garden leave as vacation. The employer is obliged to pay the balance of days with your final salary.

Not every employer understands this and you could respectfully assert your right by inviting your HR colleagues to check with their legal advisor.

Worth taking a screen print of your outstanding holiday entitlement, and any emails that youíve sent, in case of later dispute.

Worth understanding how many people are losing their jobs in this restructure. Swiss labour law is quite precise about the employer obligations to report, and create a social plan when certain headcount reduction thresholds are met.
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  #30  
Old 08.04.2021, 22:47
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Re: Freshly terminated

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During garden leave, Swiss employment law is predicated on an expectation that the employee is focussed on job hunting rather than taking a holiday.

Swiss case law has established that an employer cannot oblige the leaver to utilize more than 1/3rd of the working days during garden leave as vacation. The employer is obliged to pay the balance of days with your final salary.

Not every employer understands this and you could respectfully assert your right by inviting your HR colleagues to check with their legal advisor.

Worth taking a screen print of your outstanding holiday entitlement, and any emails that you’ve sent, in case of later dispute.

Worth understanding how many people are losing their jobs in this restructure. Swiss labour law is quite precise about the employer obligations to report, and create a social plan when certain headcount reduction thresholds are met.
.

Yes, to the point here - after 12months employment OP has 3-months termination which contractual is okay however likely it's disputable whenever he may be requested to take his 25-days holidays in this period or not I think - taking into account legal minimum is 1-month .
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  #31  
Old 08.04.2021, 22:59
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Re: Freshly terminated

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Swiss case law has established that an employer cannot oblige the leaver to utilize more than 1/3rd of the working days during garden leave as vacation. The employer is obliged to pay the balance of days with your final salary.
That's interesting . I will do some research about that. Perhaps you remember some keywords I could use with my friend google or some reference to any of the law?
Just in case....
Thanks

EDIT:
I found something interesting in this discussion (all pages):
https://www.englishforum.ch/employme...olidays-3.html

specifically:
the reference to this website(note that the URL provided in the above discussion is broken):
https://www.kmu.admin.ch/kmu/en/home...-contract.html

Termination of contract and balance of leave
Employees who still have leave to use up may ask to take this leave once termination has been announced. However, an employer who has decided to terminate the contract of one of its employees may not force them to take their leave and will sometimes need to pay compensation in cash.

EDIT 2:
This is the only reference I found regarding 1/3rd of the vacation... but it says also state a "rule of thumb".....which is quite vague :
https://www.ihk.ch/wirtschaft-politi...Cndigungsfrist

Last edited by marcofbbr; 09.04.2021 at 00:40.
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  #32  
Old 08.04.2021, 23:14
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Re: Freshly terminated

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.

Yes, to the point here - after 12months employment OP has 3-months termination which contractual is okay however likely it's disputable whenever he may be requested to take his 25-days holidays in this period or not I think - taking into account legal minimum is 1-month .
actually, it would be 25 days + 10 days(from 2020) + the overtimes and what we call flexible hours for a total of around 5 days but I am not sure those counts.

Grand total 40 days

The notice started the 6th current month till the end of July, so it would be almost 4 months.

So the holidays cover 40-50% of the notice.
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  #33  
Old 09.04.2021, 07:59
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Re: Freshly terminated

Until you get your reference letter, it's best to avoid hostilities with this employer.

If the company is in a bit of chaos, then best to write one yourself and suggest they sign it. Important: You want to ensure that in the last paragraph it mentions their regret at letting you go...if it is missing many future employers may interpret this as you leaving under bad circumstances. Unfortunately, the contents of the last paragraph are not something you can influence, even at court.
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  #34  
Old 09.04.2021, 08:05
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Re: Freshly terminated

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actually, it would be 25 days + 10 days(from 2020) + the overtimes and what we call flexible hours for a total of around 5 days but I am not sure those counts.

Grand total 40 days

The notice started the 6th current month till the end of July, so it would be almost 4 months.

So the holidays cover 40-50% of the notice.
25 holiday days have already been cumulated since Jan? Or, more likely, pro rata still has to be calculated? Meaning 10-12 days for 2021? Either way, if you are already home and not working, your employer is being more than generous as they could have asked you to work until the end of your contract (minus holidays and overtime)
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  #35  
Old 09.04.2021, 10:08
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Re: Freshly terminated

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Either way, if you are already home and not working, your employer is being more than generous as they could have asked you to work until the end of your contract (minus holidays and overtime)
Putting an employee on garden leave is rarely an act of altruistic generosity on the part of the employer.

Itís more often a risk management decision to reduce workplace tension, remove access to business critical systems, or client data, external contacts, or risk of revenge acts.

Employees during their notice period are also entitled to reasonable time off for interviews.

That said, most departing employees benefit more from garden leave, than being asked to work fully to their end date.
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  #36  
Old 09.04.2021, 10:16
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Re: Freshly terminated

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Putting an employee on garden leave is rarely an act of altruistic generosity on the part of the employer.

Itís more often a risk management decision to reduce workplace tension, remove access to business critical systems, or client data, external contacts, or risk of revenge acts.

Employees during their notice period are also entitled to reasonable time off for interviews.

That said, most departing employees benefit more from garden leave, than being asked to work fully to their end date.
Who cares whether it is 'altruistic' or not, the end result is the same; you get paid for doing nothing.
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  #37  
Old 09.04.2021, 11:09
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Re: Freshly terminated

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25 holiday days have already been cumulated since Jan? Or, more likely, pro rata still has to be calculated? Meaning 10-12 days for 2021? Either way, if you are already home and not working, your employer is being more than generous as they could have asked you to work until the end of your contract (minus holidays and overtime)

That's a good point actually.
The system where I can keep track of that, added 25 days automatically at the beginning of the year 2021. So it seems like a pre-calculated budget for the entire year but considering the date of my contract termination, that calculation should be reviewed (probably/most likely). I will double-check that.

Thanks for your comment.
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  #38  
Old 09.04.2021, 11:35
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Re: Freshly terminated

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Who cares whether it is 'altruistic' or not, the end result is the same; you get paid for doing nothing.
Putting someone on garden leave can be quite a shabby way to treat them, even more so if their income is based on bonus or commission for what they deliver.

In my view, garden leave punishes loyal service by making someone feel like they've become an overnight threat to their colleagues and employer - because they are moving on.

Although they are remunerated during garden leave, they are usually not free to start a new employment, or their own business.

It's anecdotal, I agree - long periods of garden leave can be problematic in some industries, where being kept out of the marketplace, even for a few months can result in losing connections and industry knowledge.

Garden leave can deny a highly qualified individual the right to maintain expertise, which is damaging even it's for a few months (example, pilot or surgeon).

I do agree that many people will see garden leave as a long, paid holiday, while others will see it as detrimental to moving on with their life and career.
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  #39  
Old 09.04.2021, 11:58
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Re: Freshly terminated

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Putting someone on garden leave can be quite a shabby way to treat them, even more so if their income is based on bonus or commission for what they deliver.

In my view, garden leave punishes loyal service by making someone feel like they've become an overnight threat to their colleagues and employer - because they are moving on.

Although they are remunerated during garden leave, they are usually not free to start a new employment, or their own business.

It's anecdotal, I agree - long periods of garden leave can be problematic in some industries, where being kept out of the marketplace, even for a few months can result in losing connections and industry knowledge.

Garden leave can deny a highly qualified individual the right to maintain expertise, which is damaging even it's for a few months (example, pilot or surgeon).

I do agree that many people will see garden leave as a long, paid holiday, while others will see it as detrimental to moving on with their life and career.
I've only had garden leave once and I have to say being paid for three months off was excellent.

In that case it was clear that I was free to start a new job if I found one.

Similarly I've always had this agreement with people I've put on garden leave - if they find a job they are free to bring forward their end date.
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Old 09.04.2021, 12:26
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Re: Freshly terminated

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Putting an employee on garden leave is rarely an act of altruistic generosity on the part of the employer.

Itís more often a risk management decision to reduce workplace tension, remove access to business critical systems, or client data, external contacts, or risk of revenge acts.
Yes this. Or budget drive as employees on garden leave come off the budget and go into the "restructuring reserve" pot etc. I think one has to realize this is almost never the case that the employer thinks "Let's fire Dude but let's be nice and give him a vacation" - have not come across such companies.
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