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  #41  
Old 09.04.2021, 16:49
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Re: Freshly terminated

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Good advice but you don't have to contact RAV until the first day of your unemployment. If you get given notice, look for a new job and get one, RAV wouldn't have ever needed to have heard from you.
Agreed. OP (or anybody else for that matter) doesn't need or have to, but most will want to.
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actually, it would be 25 days + 10 days(from 2020) + the overtimes and what we call flexible hours for a total of around 5 days but I am not sure those counts.

Grand total 40 days
With your contract presumably ending at the end of June you only get half of the total for 2021 ( 1/12 of the annual total per month ).
(ETA: Oops, didn't notice Sinking's post #34 until now)

Also note that any illness day on what's a contractual workday (even if that day is part of your garden leave)(not sure if that also applies to illness during a non-workday, e.g. weekend) will probably extend the notice period by one full month. This is because the job contract usually can only end on a month's end, and any illness day extends the cancel period into the next month. So, the first illness day will extend the notice period by one month, but the following 30 days would only fill up the gap until the end of July; the 32nd day would extend it into August, and thereby extend it by one additional month. AFAIK the equivalent applies to workdays where you're unable to work due to an accident.
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  #42  
Old 10.04.2021, 11:00
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Re: Freshly terminated

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Good advice but you don't have to contact RAV until the first day of your unemployment. If you get given notice, look for a new job and get one, RAV wouldn't have ever needed to have heard from you.
Landers, I have some doubts about your statement.
Surprisingly, when I asked the HR how to register with RAV, they also suggested to wait until 1 month before the end of the contract.

Then I found this:

"If you have not started looking for a new job during your notice period, you will not be eligible to receive unemployment benefits for a certain period."
Ref:
https://www.arbeit.swiss/secoalv/en/...-schritte.html

I decided to register straight away as it is in my interest to find a job as soon as possible for two reason:
1) because of my work(ICT), if I don't practice I lose my skills quite rapidly.
2) I prefer to keep my work experience contiguous.

I can't think of being unemployed for 1 year for example..... and going for interview trying to explain why I struggle to get a new job.
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  #43  
Old 10.04.2021, 11:43
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Re: Freshly terminated

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Landers, I have some doubts about your statement.
Surprisingly, when I asked the HR how to register with RAV, they also suggested to wait until 1 month before the end of the contract.

Then I found this:

"If you have not started looking for a new job during your notice period, you will not be eligible to receive unemployment benefits for a certain period."
Ref:
https://www.arbeit.swiss/secoalv/en/...-schritte.html

I decided to register straight away as it is in my interest to find a job as soon as possible for two reason:
1) because of my work(ICT), if I don't practice I lose my skills quite rapidly.
2) I prefer to keep my work experience contiguous.

I can't think of being unemployed for 1 year for example..... and going for interview trying to explain why I struggle to get a new job.
There seems to be a fallacy.

RAV does not find you a job. They don't even offer you any (they can usually only help with a very limited range of sectors), so your thought << I decided to register straight away as it is in my interest to find a job as soon as possible>> is not accurate.

It is you who has to find your new job. The point is that when you register with RAV when unemployment actually starts you have to bring all the proof that you looked for a job during the termination time, including whether you had interviews, what the results of each application was. They are also entitled to check your proof (by phoning the companies) if they feel there is a need for it.

So the thing is not to register with RAV as fast as possible (as someone mentioned, you might never need RAV) but to start searching a job and keep all the documentation of your search.
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  #44  
Old 10.04.2021, 12:07
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Re: Freshly terminated

RAV usually doesn't do anything until your 1st day of actual unemployment.

Why would they? You might find a job before being unemployed, or you might decide not to sign up for RAV for whatever reason.

It's actually more a bother for them than anything else as it add admin paperwork for somebody who is not entitled to unemployment benefits yet.

Are you now registered with RAV? What did they tell you?

As curley mentioned, RAV doesn't find you a job. They might (or might not) offer you training and courses, but not before you are officially unemployed.
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  #45  
Old 10.04.2021, 12:08
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Re: Freshly terminated

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There seems to be a fallacy.

RAV does not find you a job. They don't even offer you any (they can usually only help with a very limited range of sectors), so your thought << I decided to register straight away as it is in my interest to find a job as soon as possible>> is not accurate.

It is you who has to find your new job. The point is that when you register with RAV when unemployment actually starts you have to bring all the proof that you looked for a job during the termination time, including whether you had interviews, what the results of each application was. They are also entitled to check your proof (by phoning the companies) if they feel there is a need for it.

So the thing is not to register with RAV as fast as possible (as someone mentioned, you might never need RAV) but to start searching a job and keep all the documentation of your search.
Thanks for pointing that out. When I wrote that, I was thing about the two advantages that RAV gives you:
1) you have access to job ads 5 days in advance
2) I heard that you get offered with trainings?

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Are you now registered with RAV? What did they tell you?

As curley mentioned, RAV doesn't find you a job. They might (or might not) offer you training and courses, but not before you are officially unemployed.
Yes, I have started the registration process as recommended on their website. 1st meeting next week.

Last edited by marcofbbr; 10.04.2021 at 12:57.
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  #46  
Old 10.04.2021, 12:48
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Re: Freshly terminated

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Thanks for pointing that out. When I wrote that, I was thing about the two advantages that RAV gives you:
1) you have access to job ads 5 days in advance
2) I heard that you get offered with trainings?
access to job ads 5 days in advance of whom? Companies will never report their vacancies to RAV only. There is a RAV-computer you have access to but most jobs you will find there are in the hospitality industry, building industry etc.

The trainings are mainly about how to apply for jobs eg write the letter, write the cv etc.. May be a very good thing for many but experienced people are bored to tears in those courses.

It's been ages since I was registered with RAV and while I did the "webpublisher SIZ" yes, they did finance an internship and I actually managed to get one at Swisscom web-factory. That was groovy yet entirely exceptional.

RAV is mainly controlling whether you do what you are supposed to do and if you don't, report it to the unemployment insurance fund, where they will shorten your unemployment money. They are already very busy doing that and while some consultants may be more helpful than others, they are limited in what they can do for you.

The basic line is: This is real life, being unemployed is your personal problem to solve. You get good financial support as long as you proof that you ARE in the process of solving your problem.
Nobody is gonna do it for you, they just give you some breathing space, keep you from starving and ending up under the bridge while you sort it.

All the best.
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  #47  
Old 10.04.2021, 13:40
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Re: Freshly terminated

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access to job ads 5 days in advance of whom? Companies will never report their vacancies to RAV only. There is a RAV-computer you have access to but most jobs you will find there are in the hospitality industry, building industry etc.
Actually, for a lot of jobs companies are required to announce their vacancies to RAV first; after 5 days, they can advertise jobs as they see fit.

This applies to every job that has a high level of unemployment:

https://www.arbeit.swiss/secoalv/en/...depflicht.html

Since 1 January 2020, employers have been legally required to register vacancies in occupations where the national unemployment rate is at least 5% with the regional employment centre (RAV).

The job vacancy has to be posted in the protected area of the unemployment insurance (ALV) ‘Job Room’ online job portal for five working days before it can be advertised elsewhere (blocking period).
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  #48  
Old 10.04.2021, 14:04
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Re: Freshly terminated

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Actually, for a lot of jobs companies are required to announce their vacancies to RAV first; after 5 days, they can advertise jobs as they see fit.

This applies to every job that has a high level of unemployment:

https://www.arbeit.swiss/secoalv/en/...depflicht.html

Since 1 January 2020, employers have been legally required to register vacancies in occupations where the national unemployment rate is at least 5% with the regional employment centre (RAV).

The job vacancy has to be posted in the protected area of the unemployment insurance (ALV) ‘Job Room’ online job portal for five working days before it can be advertised elsewhere (blocking period).
Interesting info/link. Thanks.

Yet OP's job is explicitly not obliged to be registered in 2021.
Technische Verkaufsfachkräfte (ohne Informations- und Kommunikationstechnologie)
Neu Tabellen Meldepflichtige Berufsarten 2021 D.pdf
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  #49  
Old 10.04.2021, 14:45
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Re: Freshly terminated

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Interesting info/link. Thanks.

Yet OP's job is explicitly not obliged to be registered in 2021.
Technische Verkaufsfachkräfte (ohne Informations- und Kommunikationstechnologie)
Attachment 141677
Yeah, so the 5 day rule won't be very useful for him.

But working in IT industry usually means that you can find a new job pretty quickly.
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  #50  
Old 12.05.2021, 11:35
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Re: Freshly terminated

Update
After informing my employer that I would have disputed the missing holidays/overtime/flexible-time leveraging on the following information:
SNIP------------

Ref-1:https://www.kmu.admin.ch/kmu/en/home...-contract.html

""Termination of contract and balance of leave
Employees who still have leave to use up may ask to take this leave once termination has been announced. However, an employer who has decided to terminate the contract of one of its employees may not force them to take their leave and will sometimes need to pay compensation in cash. ""

ENDSNIP-------------

.....I got something back:



-------SNIP
We have reviewed your questions with our legal department.

Herewith I would like to summarise our point of view pertaining the termination notified to you on xxxxx on regards to overtime, flexible-time and holiday entitlements:

YYYYYY, as the employer may order vacation to be taken during garden leave. However, sufficient time must be left for job searching, as well as sufficient time to plan the vacation. According to Swiss case law and practice, the rule has developed that use of vacation days may be required for up to one third of the duration of the garden leave
With respect to flexible-time/overtime, the employer in principle cannot unilaterally order that it be compensated with time off, unless the employee has pre-agreed contractually to such compensation of flexible-time/overtime with time off. YYYYYY has such a contractual agreement in place with its employees through YYYYYY’s Timekeeping Regulation (“Zeitreglement”) which constitutes an integral part of the Employment Agreement. Again, there must be sufficient time for job searching and planning. Therefore, in practice, the same rule applies that only up to one third of the garden leave period may be used to compensate flexible-time/overtime
In summary, the 1/3 rule is cumulative for both flexible-time/overtime and vacation time.

Based on the above, we will be paying 7,5 working days (which are the number of working days exceeding 1/3 of the working days remaining in your period of garden leave until termination) on your last payroll (xxx 2021), herewith the calculation for your reference:



Time in leave of Absence: 80 working Days

1/3 Time in leave of Absence: 26.66 working Days

Days remaining to pay: 7,5 working days


-------END SNIP

Thanks to the people who commented.
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  #51  
Old 12.05.2021, 14:57
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Re: Freshly terminated

I personally think you're on thin ice here. Verbally they could have said anything, and leaving to the mercy of the letter they send to RAV/ORP.

I get the reasons they're terminating the job spelt out in the letter, in writing. The RAV/ORP will want a copy and they will ask your employer for their side.

Don't know what happened, but if you left on bad terms then his/her reference letter could cost your dearly.
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  #52  
Old 12.05.2021, 15:19
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Re: Freshly terminated

marcofbbr

You mentioned that you were going to sign up for RAV straight away; what did you end up doing? Are you already registered with RAV right now? If yes, that means they have already approved your/your employer versions and that you are good to go (benefit wise).
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  #53  
Old 12.05.2021, 17:13
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Re: Freshly terminated

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I personally think you're on thin ice here. Verbally they could have said anything, and leaving to the mercy of the letter they send to RAV/ORP.

I get the reasons they're terminating the job spelt out in the letter, in writing. The RAV/ORP will want a copy and they will ask your employer for their side.

Don't know what happened, but if you left on bad terms then his/her reference letter could cost your dearly.
I didn't know that RAV was verifying those kind of details. I received a reference letter already that is quite neutral though.


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marcofbbr

You mentioned that you were going to sign up for RAV straight away; what did you end up doing?

What I did ( in sequence):
- registered for RAV and got in touch with the consultant. (I still have to register with the unemployment fund yet)
- I received a reference letter from the employer ( neutral )
- I asked my employer to pay my holidays/overtime, referring to the information I found on the internet/forum.
- I had a chat with the HR director (one of them...). The above email come from him.

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If yes, that means they have already approved your/your employer versions and that you are good to go (benefit wise).
I still have to register with the unemployment fund .
To be honest I was hoping to find a job before registering so I kept delaying this step.
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  #54  
Old 12.05.2021, 17:34
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Re: Freshly terminated

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I didn't know that RAV was verifying those kind of details. I received a reference letter already that is quite neutral though.





What I did ( in sequence):
- registered for RAV and got in touch with the consultant. (I still have to register with the unemployment fund yet)
- I received a reference letter from the employer ( neutral )
- I asked my employer to pay my holidays/overtime, referring to the information I found on the internet/forum.
- I had a chat with the HR director (one of them...). The above email come from him.



I still have to register with the unemployment fund .
To be honest I was hoping to find a job before registering so I kept delaying this step.
RAV will not check your reference letter, but will cross check your dismissal letter with the document that your employer needs to send to RAV (as explained by Jim and myself a couple of posts above this one).

Example: in your dismissal letter they just mention that you won't be working for them from date xxx, without mentioning the reason.

Employer can very well state in the documents asked by RAV that you quit of your own accord.

At this point, you will need to prove that you got fired and that you didn't leave on your own accord

Hence my suggestion to get a proper letter stating the reason. And keep whatever email or anything that might help your case until the unemployment fund and your RAV consultant give you the OK (how much your daily allowance will be, how many (if any) suspension days, etc.).

When will you be officially unemployed? June? July? Better to sort this out now and not need it because you found a job in the meantime than pulling it off ...
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Old 12.05.2021, 18:54
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Re: Freshly terminated

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Employer can very well state in the documents asked by RAV that you quit of your own accord.
When will you be officially unemployed? June? July?
That was sorted , the termination letter was amended.
End of July will be the last day, but I think it is a good idea to complete the RAV registration indeed.
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  #56  
Old 12.05.2021, 19:42
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Re: Freshly terminated

I am with RAV at the moment and this is what I was told:


- you must inform them as soon as your job is likely to be terminated, or has been terminated - they will note your first contact, even if you don't end up actually applying...

- you must start looking for work (10-12 applications per month, spread evenly across the weeks) in the month before your contract ends, or as soon as it is terminated.

- you can certainly register and meet your advisor *before* your current job ends.
- the termination letter needs to state a clear reason (so that they can determine if your contract is being terminated by the employer or the employee).

- there will be a *lot* of paperwork and job hunting required.



They also sent me for a language test (done remotely) to check my German level. They won't do this if you are a beginner, but they will if it shows that your level is below but reasonably close to being a level that makes you easily employable in your chosen profession.


The electronic job hunting systems and online systems have improved dramatically from a year ago (I was unemployed for a short time last year as well).


Breathe a sigh of relief when the next contract is signed!
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Old 12.05.2021, 21:27
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Re: Freshly terminated

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I am with RAV at the moment and this is what I was told:


- you must inform them as soon as your job is likely to be terminated, or has been terminated - they will note your first contact, even if you don't end up actually applying...

- you must start looking for work (10-12 applications per month, spread evenly across the weeks) in the month before your contract ends, or as soon as it is terminated.

- you can certainly register and meet your advisor *before* your current job ends.
- the termination letter needs to state a clear reason (so that they can determine if your contract is being terminated by the employer or the employee).

- there will be a *lot* of paperwork and job hunting required.



They also sent me for a language test (done remotely) to check my German level. They won't do this if you are a beginner, but they will if it shows that your level is below but reasonably close to being a level that makes you easily employable in your chosen profession.


The electronic job hunting systems and online systems have improved dramatically from a year ago (I was unemployed for a short time last year as well).


Breathe a sigh of relief when the next contract is signed!
Apparently the RAV registration is a double registration. One registration for the advisor and one for the unemployment fund. The second one seems to be the most important one to determine whether you are entitled for the allowance.

Was that the same for you? I was surprised to learn that an additional registration was required after sending all the documents to the advisor.
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Old 12.05.2021, 22:43
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Re: Freshly terminated

Yes, there are two separate entities.

RAV ensures that you comply with the rules (like number of job searches per month) and enrolls you in courses if needed. You get assigned to a RAV office based on where you live.

Unemployment fund calculates your allowances and proceeds with monthly payments, working in close collaboration with RAV office.
You can choose whatever employment fund you prefer, this is not based on where you live.

You should have received all the relevant information from your RAV consultant, including the list of documents needed by the unemployment fund, but just in case you have more questions: https://www.arbeit.swiss/secoalv/en/...edien/faq.html

I hope you find a job before end of July, but as you have already signed up for RAV, you might as well go ahead and start the process with the unemployment fund. They won't proceed with calculations until all documents have been provided, not sure if they will have to wait until you get the last paycheck, though (but once they have all the documents, they are super fast).
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