Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Employment  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 10.05.2021, 14:21
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 8,600
Groaned at 101 Times in 82 Posts
Thanked 13,352 Times in 5,426 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
In Switzerland can discrimination only start if a person applies and doesn’t get a job for some reason... but getting legal proof that you are discriminated against is basically impossible.
Yes, very difficult. But I do have a friend who was passed up for promotion in a major bank, and was successful in proving that this was because the two managers with the authority to take the decision had rejected his application because he was gay.

Fortunately for his legal process, those managers' derogatory remarks had been overheard by other colleagues, who then testified. They had said that gay people are flighty and silly, per se, and can therefore not be trusted with responsibilities.

Unfortunately, there were no disciplinary consequences for the discriminatory managers.

Even so, his lawyers succeeded in an out-of-court settlement, and the man was awarded the salary increase he would have had, had he been given the promotion. Later, when another post came up in a different department, at the level for which he had been rejected although suitably qualified, he was promoted to that position.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank doropfiz for this useful post:
  #42  
Old 10.05.2021, 15:46
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Work in ZH, live in SZ
Posts: 12,349
Groaned at 363 Times in 293 Posts
Thanked 23,668 Times in 8,565 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
Thanks a lot for your responses, they are really useful. Specially the one from Treversus, which really hits the nail in the head, specially with the article.



What it seems that here we have a misunderstanding of what is a "mother tongue" which, at least for me it is not the same as "first language", "main language", "native" or "bilingual". But those terns seems to be fuzzy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_...ve_language%22

Anyhow, for me a "mother tongue" is the language you speak at home with your parents, and it could be perfectly different from the main language the country you live. Mother tongue is something you can choose and you can change, since your parents choose it for you. And if you are extremely lucky you can have more than one mother tongue if you each of your parents or family members speak different language to you. For example if your father is German and your Mother is Portuguese, and each of them speak to you on each of those language, you'll have two mother tongues.

Then if the issue of first language for me, that could be similar to mother tongue, but not linked to your family. For example could be the language of the school go attend. And then main language, which could be a totally different language you learned later in life and you carry out your life and / or work on it. For example I'm Spanish, I learned later on English and I use English as my main language now because I have most of my life on it (computer, write on it mainly, or notes…). And finally comes the terns bilingual and native which could be or not complementary to the previous ones. You can have a mother tongue and you don't really speak fluently or bilingual or as a native on it. It happens to a lot of international children, they have a mother tongue that speak with the their parents (or just one) but they are not bilingual or native on them.

Said that… for me it's really weird that they ask for a "mother tongue" since they are asking which language you spoke with at least one of your parent or you were brought up? something you can't change. You can go back in time and change the language you speak with your parents or family.

I totally understand that you can ask for certain level of a language on a job requirement, specially if it's justified. For example as some of you have explain when the post is for sales. Even I can understand, you can ask for a dialect. Of course if it's justified.

It's interesting that in the article shared by Treverus explain that everything is allowed, but



So in other words if they are asking for something that it's inextricably linked to you unless it's fully justify (you are a fireman and you need a specific height), would be unlawful.

I'm sure that in this case it was a mistake. They want someone that speak German as a native. The job is not even in sales, but probably it has to do some pitching and so.

Anyhow, it caught my eye and I wanted to know more about what is allowed and not on a Swiss add and if there is any anti-discrimination law around.

Thanks a lot!
You are overthinking this. A lot. When the add says "mother tongue" did the Swiss who wrote this not at all differentiate between any of your terms... he used an online dictionary to find out what "Muttersprachler" is in English.

I just had a call where the customer basically complained that he has to speak standard German with me instead of his dialect... with me replying that I understand Swiss German... so yes, that's a big thing around here. Better get over it as you wont change the Swiss on that point.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Treverus for this useful post:
  #43  
Old 10.05.2021, 15:54
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 32,499
Groaned at 2,578 Times in 1,840 Posts
Thanked 39,639 Times in 18,682 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
I just had a call where the customer basically complained that he has to speak standard German with me instead of his dialect... with me replying that I understand Swiss German... so yes, that's a big thing around here. Better get over it as you wont change the Swiss on that point.
I've got a biker friend from Einsiedeln who is always happy when I'm around as I'm one of only two in our group who can understand him when he speaks Mundart!

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 10.05.2021, 16:40
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Basle
Posts: 2,907
Groaned at 76 Times in 60 Posts
Thanked 2,025 Times in 1,178 Posts
Landers has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
Hey!

I've come across of a job posting where they were asking for a native speaker of German (German as a mother tongue "Deutsch Muttersprache").

I'm wondering, out of curiosity, if this isn't plain discrimination and if this is legally allowed. I'm wondering specially if you are a "native swiss" citizen, but you are from a French speaking region… they are discriminating you, even if you speak German almost like a native.
It's sailing close to the wind, but this is Switzerland and anything goes. They want someone brought up with or amongst German and they would know things about the language that even someone fully fluent might not understand. As this would or could be region specific I'm not sure if for them that would exclude Swiss German speakers or German German speakers.
Discrimination would be "Korean person wanted to work in restaurant" but you also see that here.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 10.05.2021, 16:57
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Zurich
Posts: 77
Groaned at 16 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 22 Times in 15 Posts
Marog has become a little unpopularMarog has become a little unpopular
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Having a certain level of proficiency which can be established via recognised tests and courses is acceptable. Asking for a Native Speaker is not Legal in any developed society.

https://fra.europa.eu/en/eu-charter/...discrimination => Language is an aspect.

I find it astonishing what we can get away with in Switzerland : )

I would be interesting if a native German speaker with tourette's turns up for the interview
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 10.05.2021, 17:01
MusicChick's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 17,488
Groaned at 414 Times in 275 Posts
Thanked 20,435 Times in 10,578 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
Having a certain level of proficiency which can be established via recognised tests and courses is acceptable. Asking for a Native Speaker is not Legal in any developed society.

https://fra.europa.eu/en/eu-charter/...discrimination => Language is an aspect.

I find it astonishing what we can get away with in Switzerland : )

I would be interesting if a native German speaker with tourette's turns up for the interview
Is "native and native-like" more civilized? Because I see that all the time.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 10.05.2021, 17:29
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Zurich
Posts: 77
Groaned at 16 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 22 Times in 15 Posts
Marog has become a little unpopularMarog has become a little unpopular
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
Is "native and native-like" more civilized? Because I see that all the time.
I suppose the issue is how it's worded, how does one establish a qualification of a native speaker except for using skin colour or place of birth as proof ?

Whereas if it said Proficient then one one can have a Japanese or a Russian who is Proficient in German.

The language for the Job-description seems to indicate race and I assume is not a requirement for the job, take that away and you could have an African speaking Proficient German.

After all there is a language Proficiency requirement when applying for a Swiss Passport ? It does not say Native Speaker or Native-Like.
Reply With Quote
This user groans at Marog for this post:
  #48  
Old 10.05.2021, 17:35
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Work in ZH, live in SZ
Posts: 12,349
Groaned at 363 Times in 293 Posts
Thanked 23,668 Times in 8,565 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
I suppose the issue is how it's worded, how does one establish a qualification of a native speaker except for using skin colour or place of birth as proof ?

Whereas if it said Proficient then one one can have a Japanese or a Russian who is Proficient in German.

The language for the Job-description seems to indicate race and I assume is not a requirement for the job, take that away and you could have an African speaking Proficient German.

After all there is a language Proficiency requirement when applying for a Swiss Passport ? It does not say Native Speaker or Native-Like.
I have a Tamil colleague who is an absolute native speaker in Swiss German. Dont make it about skin color. It isnt. Language skills are exactly that: a skill. There are jobs where that is necessary.

Not being allowed to discriminate against language in the EU does in no way mean I am not allowed to require language skills for jobs. And yes, that is a backdoor that is heavily used for discrimination, but that doesnt change basic facts.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Treverus for this useful post:
  #49  
Old 10.05.2021, 17:42
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 11,314
Groaned at 399 Times in 325 Posts
Thanked 17,298 Times in 8,749 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

From wiki.

Quote:
Defining "native speaker"[edit]
Defining what constitutes a native speaker is difficult, and there is no test which can identify one. It is not known whether native speakers are a defined group of people, or if the concept should be thought of as a perfect prototype to which actual speakers may or may not conform.[12]

An article titled "The Native Speaker: An Achievable Model?" published by the Asian EFL Journal[13] states that there are six general principles that relate to the definition of "native speaker". The principles, according to the study, are typically accepted by language experts across the scientific field. A native speaker is defined according to the following guidelines:

The individual acquired the language in early childhood and maintains the use of the language.
The individual has intuitive knowledge of the language.
The individual is able to produce fluent, spontaneous discourse.
The individual is communicatively competent in different social contexts.
The individual identifies with or is identified by a language community.
The individual does not have a foreign accent.
The last one is absolutely silly, many kids who grow up abroad have a foreign accent and they still speak "native-like" their mother tongue.

I want to see that moron who'd tell my kids they're not "native speakers" of my language.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 10.05.2021, 17:46
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Basle
Posts: 2,907
Groaned at 76 Times in 60 Posts
Thanked 2,025 Times in 1,178 Posts
Landers has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
I suppose the issue is how it's worded, how does one establish a qualification of a native speaker except for using skin colour or place of birth as proof ?

Whereas if it said Proficient then one one can have a Japanese or a Russian who is Proficient in German.

The language for the Job-description seems to indicate race and I assume is not a requirement for the job, take that away and you could have an African speaking Proficient German.

After all there is a language Proficiency requirement when applying for a Swiss Passport ? It does not say Native Speaker or Native-Like.
I think you've got yourself muddled with the whole race thing and it actually comes across a bit racist.
A German with mother-tongue German doesn't have to be white just like anyone with mother-tongue Japanese doesn't have to look Japanese. "An African" could apply for the job if their mother-tonque was German. They could be black, white, or something else. Not everyone from Africa is Black.

As for "native" I guess it depends on your definition of "native".
1. one born or reared in a particular place.
2a : an original or indigenous inhabitant.

For "native speaker" I'd say definition 1 applies.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Landers for this useful post:
  #51  
Old 10.05.2021, 17:51
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 5,655
Groaned at 405 Times in 223 Posts
Thanked 6,473 Times in 2,973 Posts
ZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

The question’s ridiculous - it simply means someone that grew-up with that language, and didn‘t need to have special education to learn it. Makes no difference where you come from.

If you don‘t understand the term, then I would assume tbh that you‘re not qualified for the position. My daughter has 2 „Muttersprachen“ as an example, as she grew-up with parents from more than one country. With Mummy she‘s always spoken one language, with Daddy the other. It‘s that simple.
Reply With Quote
The following 9 users would like to thank ZuriRollt for this useful post:
  #52  
Old 10.05.2021, 17:52
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Zurich
Posts: 77
Groaned at 16 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 22 Times in 15 Posts
Marog has become a little unpopularMarog has become a little unpopular
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
I have a Tamil colleague who is an absolute native speaker in Swiss German. Dont make it about skin color. It isnt. Language skills are exactly that: a skill. There are jobs where that is necessary.

Not being allowed to discriminate against language in the EU does in no way mean I am not allowed to require language skills for jobs. And yes, that is a backdoor that is heavily used for discrimination, but that doesnt change basic facts.
Can't be a Native Speaker unless the language was part of your childhood development, so ofcourse it's about skin color. Language Skill is exactly that an acquired skill but Native Speaker is not a skill it's acquired at birth without choice.

Was English your native or was it skill, sorry don't mean to be racist, just a thought.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users groan at Marog for this post:
  #53  
Old 10.05.2021, 18:20
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 5,655
Groaned at 405 Times in 223 Posts
Thanked 6,473 Times in 2,973 Posts
ZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
Can't be a Native Speaker unless the language was part of your childhood development, so ofcourse it's about skin color..
Are you really going with this logic ? Not quite sure what Planet you live on, but clearly not the same one as me.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank ZuriRollt for this useful post:
  #54  
Old 10.05.2021, 18:28
roegner's Avatar
Moderately Dutch
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 11,691
Groaned at 385 Times in 323 Posts
Thanked 15,273 Times in 7,045 Posts
roegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
Can't be a Native Speaker unless the language was part of your childhood development, so ofcourse it's about skin color. Language Skill is exactly that an acquired skill but Native Speaker is not a skill it's acquired at birth without choice.

Was English your native or was it skill, sorry don't mean to be racist, just a thought.
I grew up with 2 languages, one from Indonesia. No, I am not Asian.

I learned another language at age 7 and am considered a native speaker. What you call native language may be the first language you learn but you can be a native speaker in more than one language.
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank roegner for this useful post:
  #55  
Old 10.05.2021, 18:29
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 4,239
Groaned at 72 Times in 67 Posts
Thanked 5,894 Times in 2,778 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
Can't be a Native Speaker unless the language was part of your childhood development, so ofcourse it's about skin color. Language Skill is exactly that an acquired skill but Native Speaker is not a skill it's acquired at birth without choice.

Was English your native or was it skill, sorry don't mean to be racist, just a thought.
I understand there are small towns in remote areas of some countries where ethnic homogeneity exists. But, we live in a country with 25% foreigners. How can you tell what language someone speaks by the skin? Also consider people is fluent in 2, 3 or 4 languages.

The irony in all this is that probably is that the offer OP read was a low paid job. The higher you go in salary or more specialized the job, the less important the language skills. The perfect knowledge of local language is needed when you deal only with locals that only know 1 language which are low income on average. So, not a lot of money can be made from such customers.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 10.05.2021, 18:33
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 32,499
Groaned at 2,578 Times in 1,840 Posts
Thanked 39,639 Times in 18,682 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
How can you tell what language someone speaks by the skin?
Indeed.

My wife's kids clearly look asian (their father is a Vietnamese refugee), but they only speak Italian!

Same with most of their cousins, only the eldest (who has two Vietnamese parents) speaks Vietnamese (and fluently reads and writes it), the rest only Italian, including her siblings!

My grandson, who is half Thai, normally speaks Swiss German, but now is starting to speak English and Thai.

Tom

Last edited by st2lemans; 10.05.2021 at 18:50.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #57  
Old 10.05.2021, 18:41
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 32,499
Groaned at 2,578 Times in 1,840 Posts
Thanked 39,639 Times in 18,682 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
Also consider people is fluent in 2, 3 or 4 languages.
Most of them not.

Quote:
View Post
The higher you go in salary or more specialized the job, the less important the language skills. The perfect knowledge of local language is needed when you deal only with locals that only know 1 language which are low income on average.
Bullshit.

German is important for German customers who don't speak anything other than German or bad English.

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 10.05.2021, 18:43
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Zürich
Posts: 300
Groaned at 5 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 299 Times in 153 Posts
rezak has earned the respect of manyrezak has earned the respect of manyrezak has earned the respect of many
Re: German as a mother tongue?

To be honest if I'd read it I would just assume by "mother tongue" they simply mean the level of German - i.e. it needs to be perfect.

I speak a language that is not my mother tongue, but I learned it very well by living in that country for 15 years. I speak at the level where folks do not believe that I did not learn it as a kid, so on my CV I simply put the level at "mother tongue" because C2 does not really give it justice.
Reply With Quote
The following 9 users would like to thank rezak for this useful post:
  #59  
Old 10.05.2021, 18:51
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 4,239
Groaned at 72 Times in 67 Posts
Thanked 5,894 Times in 2,778 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
Bullshit.

German is important for German customers who don't speak anything other than German or bad English.

Tom
Management level is not affected by that. If perfect local language is needed, a local is sent to work with the customer. But, who earns more? Management or the one talking to the customer in the common Mutterspräche?

The managers I've met have a good language portfolio but only 1 or 2 at Muttersprache level. The rest are only small talk level in the language of employees, and of course not writing at all.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 10.05.2021, 18:53
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 32,499
Groaned at 2,578 Times in 1,840 Posts
Thanked 39,639 Times in 18,682 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
To be honest if I'd read it I would just assume by "mother tongue" they simply mean the level of German - i.e. it needs to be perfect.

I speak a language that is not my mother tongue, but I learned it very well by living in that country for 15 years. I speak at the level where folks do not believe that I did not learn it as a kid, so on my CV I simply put the level at "mother tongue" because C2 does not really give it justice.
My ex girlfriend always thought that my BS French accent was fake, as I spoke too well for such a shit accent (according to her, but she was a Parisienne).

Tom
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
discrimination, job ads, language




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Homeschooling - mother tongue languages, home country programs et al. MusicChick Education 0 27.02.2016 10:04
I am an au pair and I am forced to teach the kids my mother tongue fpcsstnjjk Employment 22 26.04.2015 21:56
MS Office 2007 in Foreign but want it in Mother Tongue? NotAllThere Other/general 2 25.04.2010 13:51
English (as Mother Tongue) Speech Therapist in Zurich and area? kalahari Girl Family matters/health 4 17.02.2009 10:20
Work in tourism Industry - Mother tongue = Spanish GUSI Employment 2 13.04.2007 10:01


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 00:37.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0