Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Employment  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #81  
Old 10.05.2021, 21:16
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 5,659
Groaned at 405 Times in 223 Posts
Thanked 6,476 Times in 2,975 Posts
ZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
This.
Can‘t say for anything's else, but in banking that‘s a fact. You need English in Switzerland.

It‘s international business, so needs it. My colleagues come from Italy, Spain, Africa, Germany, Asia incl. the Indian sub-continent, France, UK, Poland, USA (apologies if I‘ve forgotten anyone). Oh Switzerland too. So good communication is essential. I‘ve worked from the „home-office“ model since years, and about 30 years not home office before that.

Verbal communication is key.

Within banking alone, there are areas where you really need Swiss German - German alone won‘t help a lot. But in other areas you need multiple languages - and that fluently.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank ZuriRollt for this useful post:
  #82  
Old 10.05.2021, 21:27
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 5,659
Groaned at 405 Times in 223 Posts
Thanked 6,476 Times in 2,975 Posts
ZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
Can‘t say for anything's else, but in banking that‘s a fact. You need English in Switzerland.

It‘s international business, so needs it. My colleagues come from Italy, Spain, Africa, Germany, Asia incl. the Indian sub-continent, France, UK, Poland, USA (apologies if I‘ve forgotten anyone). Oh Switzerland too. So good communication is essential. I‘ve worked from the „home-office“ model since years, and about 30 years not home office before that.

Verbal communication is key.

Within banking alone, there are areas where you really need Swiss German - German alone won‘t help a lot. But in other areas you need multiple languages - and that fluently.
Thanks for your thumbs-up Rogner. I actually forgot that I spent at least 3 years working and commuting to Danish colleagues

(Know you‘re not Danish, let’s say of Northern speaking countries?
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 10.05.2021, 21:27
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 32,512
Groaned at 2,578 Times in 1,840 Posts
Thanked 39,650 Times in 18,688 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
Can‘t say for anything's else, but in banking that‘s a fact. You need English in Switzerland.
Alas, I have NEVER worked in banking, not Pharma, nor at an English speaking job except in the US.

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 10.05.2021, 21:32
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 5,659
Groaned at 405 Times in 223 Posts
Thanked 6,476 Times in 2,975 Posts
ZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
Alas, I have NEVER worked in banking, not Pharma, nor at an English speaking job except in the US.

Tom
Why „alas“? You‘re lucky
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank ZuriRollt for this useful post:
  #85  
Old 10.05.2021, 21:59
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Basle
Posts: 2,907
Groaned at 76 Times in 60 Posts
Thanked 2,025 Times in 1,178 Posts
Landers has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
Would be glad to get a translation 😀
"if" was a typo but you didn't know that, or maybe you did.
He seems to have quoted a definition of "mother tongue", although I didn't actually see it, and you or someone else put forward an "alternative interpretation". What he goes on to say is that if it were to be a point of law no-one would ask you for your opinion but rather put substantially more weight on the aforementioned dictionary definition.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Landers for this useful post:
  #86  
Old 10.05.2021, 22:00
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 8,620
Groaned at 103 Times in 84 Posts
Thanked 13,372 Times in 5,435 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
...probably is that the offer OP read was a low paid job. The higher you go in salary or more specialized the job, the less important the language skills. The perfect knowledge of local language is needed when you deal only with locals that only know 1 language which are low income on average. So, not a lot of money can be made from such customers.
I thought about this, and find it a bit too cut and dried. After all, some farmers (whether or not they actually manage to achieve a high income themselves) need to buy, alone or in cooperatives, very expensive equipment, but speak only Swiss German.

Specialised jobs with specific language requirements - because of the emotional appeal of a mother tongue - also include artistic fields such as theatre, radio, television, writers for advertising, ghost-writers and editors.

Even German in Germany is not the same as High German in Switzerland. For example, an American, or for that matter even a German, may not know that "Personalausweis" in Germany means something completely different in Switzerland, and such expressions would need to be changed for any the version of the text aimed at the Swiss market.

Speech therapists, too, and those working with hearing impaired people can be more effective with a perfect command of the local language.

Besides, even a person who speaks (or understands) multiple languages may have a certain emotional connection to one or another of those. Just recently I heard a Swiss person, a graduate earning reasonably well, who speaks several languages, one of which English, fluently and frequently, say that it makes him shudder to hear Roger Federer speaking English because, he said... it just doesn't feel right. Like when Prince Charles speaks German, which he does quite well.

For some patients, the feeling of connectedness, of being like-minded, is very important when a consulting a medical professional, and many find relief or become willing to open up once they find a medical professional with the same mother tongue.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank doropfiz for this useful post:
  #87  
Old 10.05.2021, 22:22
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Basle
Posts: 2,907
Groaned at 76 Times in 60 Posts
Thanked 2,025 Times in 1,178 Posts
Landers has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
Can‘t say for anything's else, but in banking that‘s a fact. You need English in Switzerland.
...
Verbal communication is key.
I used to work in the UK, with language, and it was an art form selecting the right words in the right order. It's a beautiful thing when one can articulate eloquently. It also can be very specific especially when it comes to specifications and contracts.

All that seemed to go out of the window when I moved to Switzerland. Sure there were documents with English words in but it seemed everything was done verbally and no-one actually looked into what was written. Even if something was very precisely and clearly written in English it would be over-ruled by a predominantly non-native English speaking workforce. It didn't seem to matter what was written. A=B except when someone else decides that it isn't. If a well written document is like a symphony orchestra the documents I saw here were like having to endure a primary school recorder performance. Then you get those who learn the odd English saying and slip it into conversation thinking they're demonstrating a native knowledge even though they have no idea what the saying means. Of course though I'm grateful for the privilege of being able to work in continental Europe without having to speak another language and I like the different cultures.

Having said that, going back to England, things are not always better and often worse. No-one here says "should of went" (for should have gone) for example. Those kind of things are from native English speakers, people whose mother tongue is English. It's not always a good thing.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Landers for this useful post:
  #88  
Old 10.05.2021, 22:24
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 5,659
Groaned at 405 Times in 223 Posts
Thanked 6,476 Times in 2,975 Posts
ZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
I thought about this, and find it a bit too cut and dried. After all, some farmers (whether or not they actually manage to achieve a high income themselves) need to buy, alone or in cooperatives, very expensive equipment, but speak only Swiss German.

Specialised jobs with specific language requirements - because of the emotional appeal of a mother tongue - also include artistic fields such as theatre, radio, television, writers for advertising, ghost-writers and editors.

Even German in Germany is not the same as High German in Switzerland. For example, an American, or for that matter even a German, may not know that "Personalausweis" in Germany means something completely different in Switzerland, and such expressions would need to be changed for any the version of the text aimed at the Swiss market.

Speech therapists, too, and those working with hearing impaired people can be more effective with a perfect command of the local language.

Besides, even a person who speaks (or understands) multiple languages may have a certain emotional connection to one or another of those. Just recently I heard a Swiss person, a graduate earning reasonably well, who speaks several languages, one of which English, fluently and frequently, say that it makes him shudder to hear Roger Federer speaking English because, he said... it just doesn't feel right. Like when Prince Charles speaks German, which he does quite well.

For some patients, the feeling of connectedness, of being like-minded, is very important when a consulting a medical professional, and many find relief or become willing to open up once they find a medical professional with the same mother tongue.
Yes, it‘s true. Tbh I don‘t think that that nuances of German / Swiss German are only true of Switzerland (as well as the significant cultural differences and attitude to each other). You also see it between Scandinavian countries such as Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland (but that‘s just my observation).

It was a big thing with Roger Federer speaking with an accent apparently - haven‘t read it - one of my closest Swiss friends trained with him for a few years in his early years and said he was an egocentric asshole.

In many areas, Swiss German is the only way. Regardless of which industry you are working.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank ZuriRollt for this useful post:
  #89  
Old 10.05.2021, 22:25
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Frick, Aargau
Posts: 2,876
Groaned at 62 Times in 50 Posts
Thanked 4,070 Times in 1,901 Posts
HickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
Maybe the requirement is not understood correctly.

I have not met a Swiss German person who takes the literal meaning of "Deutsch Muttersprache" as the mother must speak German. It simply means, speaks German as a first language. I’ve had various interesting discussions about this with Swiss German friends, and I’ve come to the conclusion that “mother tounge” is only taken literally in some Anglo Saxon context.

If your German is good i.e. as good as if it was your first language, then you should not let it stop you applying.
Mother tongue is definitely not treated literally in English. It means you are a native speaker, not that it is your mothers first language.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank HickvonFrick for this useful post:
  #90  
Old 10.05.2021, 22:41
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Basle
Posts: 2,907
Groaned at 76 Times in 60 Posts
Thanked 2,025 Times in 1,178 Posts
Landers has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
Like when Prince Charles speaks German, which he does quite well.
His grandmother's tongue was German but he was probably just well educated.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Landers for this useful post:
  #91  
Old 10.05.2021, 22:43
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,681
Groaned at 9 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 1,204 Times in 662 Posts
axman has a reputation beyond reputeaxman has a reputation beyond reputeaxman has a reputation beyond reputeaxman has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
Mother tongue is definitely not treated literally in English. It means you are a native speaker, not that it is your mothers first language.
OP posted a wiki link which states (if I remember correctly) that in certain English speaking countries it does mean mother’s first language. Where OP comes from it is taken literally which is why he started this thread.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank axman for this useful post:
  #92  
Old 10.05.2021, 23:04
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Zurich
Posts: 77
Groaned at 16 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 22 Times in 15 Posts
Marog has become a little unpopularMarog has become a little unpopular
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
Where do you come up with this racist rubbish?

Tom
I was talking about Linguistic deficiency not race. Native means one thing and one thing only. One of the few words which does not have any other lexicological interpretation no matter which country it's spoken. I could be wrong but I haven't heard anything to support any other view point except that I am from a different planet ??
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 10.05.2021, 23:12
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Zurich
Posts: 77
Groaned at 16 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 22 Times in 15 Posts
Marog has become a little unpopularMarog has become a little unpopular
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
Just noticed that you‘re from Chigwell (guess that‘s the UK) - which Swiss position are you looking at?

Sometimes it helps to just put in your covering letter for a position in Switzerland, for which you are qualified for a position in Switzerland with work permits etc. that although German is not your mother tongue, you are completely and utterly fluent in German and have absolutely no problem with Swiss German either? Forgot to mention, that you also need to apply for a position that no Swiss person is available to fill (if you‘re not Swiss)...
Not looking for a role mate moved to Switzerland about an year ago. The general interpretation seem to be very different here : )
I guess the appropriate phase would be "like from another planet"
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 10.05.2021, 23:21
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 8,620
Groaned at 103 Times in 84 Posts
Thanked 13,372 Times in 5,435 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
I can think of plenty of mother tongue English couples who constantly misunderstand what the other one said
Quote:
View Post
Native means one thing and one thing only.
I doubt that. On the contrary, in my experience, in English and in any other language I know any part of, words almost always do mean more than one thing. In the crass differences or the nuances lie the very essence of misunderstandings, the creativity of discussions, the motivation for research and the beauty of poetry.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank doropfiz for this useful post:
  #95  
Old 10.05.2021, 23:40
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 4,265
Groaned at 72 Times in 67 Posts
Thanked 5,964 Times in 2,809 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
I thought about this, and find it a bit too cut and dried. After all, some farmers (whether or not they actually manage to achieve a high income themselves) need to buy, alone or in cooperatives, very expensive equipment, but speak only Swiss German.

Specialised jobs with specific language requirements - because of the emotional appeal of a mother tongue - also include artistic fields such as theatre, radio, television, writers for advertising, ghost-writers and editors.

Even German in Germany is not the same as High German in Switzerland. For example, an American, or for that matter even a German, may not know that "Personalausweis" in Germany means something completely different in Switzerland, and such expressions would need to be changed for any the version of the text aimed at the Swiss market.

Speech therapists, too, and those working with hearing impaired people can be more effective with a perfect command of the local language.

Besides, even a person who speaks (or understands) multiple languages may have a certain emotional connection to one or another of those. Just recently I heard a Swiss person, a graduate earning reasonably well, who speaks several languages, one of which English, fluently and frequently, say that it makes him shudder to hear Roger Federer speaking English because, he said... it just doesn't feel right. Like when Prince Charles speaks German, which he does quite well.

For some patients, the feeling of connectedness, of being like-minded, is very important when a consulting a medical professional, and many find relief or become willing to open up once they find a medical professional with the same mother tongue.
You're right. There are inward and outward looking business. I work in engineering and the Swiss market is beyond saturated. Only way to grow is to go outside. Other business may rely on customers within cantonal borders: radio, TV, journalism, lawyers. But, competing with locals for such kind of work is almost suicidal.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Axa for this useful post:
  #96  
Old 10.05.2021, 23:46
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Basle
Posts: 2,907
Groaned at 76 Times in 60 Posts
Thanked 2,025 Times in 1,178 Posts
Landers has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond reputeLanders has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
Where OP comes from it is taken literally which is why he started this thread.
[About mother-tongue] No it's not. The first post immediately translates it to native speaker then talks about the requirement to be native. I already posted the two definitions of native and anyone can google it.

An American born in America and brought up there is (mostly likely) a "native English speaker". They are though most unlikely a Native American.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Landers for this useful post:
  #97  
Old 11.05.2021, 00:21
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 5,659
Groaned at 405 Times in 223 Posts
Thanked 6,476 Times in 2,975 Posts
ZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
I used to work in the UK, with language, and it was an art form selecting the right words in the right order. It's a beautiful thing when one can articulate eloquently. It also can be very specific especially when it comes to specifications and contracts.

All that seemed to go out of the window when I moved to Switzerland. Sure there were documents with English words in but it seemed everything was done verbally and no-one actually looked into what was written. Even if something was very precisely and clearly written in English it would be over-ruled by a predominantly non-native English speaking workforce. It didn't seem to matter what was written. A=B except when someone else decides that it isn't. If a well written document is like a symphony orchestra the documents I saw here were like having to endure a primary school recorder performance. Then you get those who learn the odd English saying and slip it into conversation thinking they're demonstrating a native knowledge even though they have no idea what the saying means. Of course though I'm grateful for the privilege of being able to work in continental Europe without having to speak another language and I like the different cultures.

Having said that, going back to England, things are not always better and often worse. No-one here says "should of went" (for should have gone) for example. Those kind of things are from native English speakers, people whose mother tongue is English. It's not always a good thing.

Have thought about it, and have to agree. Of course legal documents are drawn-up, but that can take months. Put together a really good document, ready for any goldfish to be interested in and comprehend is really hard. In Switzerland you need to make initial English documents simple, but with the right level of technical data.

Was always happy when I achieved that in several blue chip Swiss companies - that was my main goal - how do I put this analysis and recommendation into terms that everyone could understand - or made the effort to take the time to understand.

Reducing complex, unknown things into uncomplicated English - that‘s clear. But it‘s so much more than that when you need to get a person, team or company invested into multi-million EUR projects. When the language barrier is there, then you need to be aware of it and adapt.
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 11.05.2021, 00:29
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 5,659
Groaned at 405 Times in 223 Posts
Thanked 6,476 Times in 2,975 Posts
ZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
Not looking for a role mate moved to Switzerland about an year ago. The general interpretation seem to be very different here : )
I guess the appropriate phase would be "like from another planet"
I have to echo a previous post - I really don‘t understand your post ��
It also doesn’t seem to be in context with the general discussion? What’s a “role mate”?

Oh well, guess just a ‘bot
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank ZuriRollt for this useful post:
  #99  
Old 11.05.2021, 07:15
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 32,512
Groaned at 2,578 Times in 1,840 Posts
Thanked 39,650 Times in 18,688 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
competing with locals for such kind of work is almost suicidal.
Unless you are like me, and can function in a working environment in all 4 Swiss languages.

Tom
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #100  
Old 11.05.2021, 07:21
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 32,512
Groaned at 2,578 Times in 1,840 Posts
Thanked 39,650 Times in 18,688 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: German as a mother tongue?

Quote:
View Post
In many areas, Swiss German is the only way. Regardless of which industry you are working.
According to my friend from Einsiedeln, it's not important that I have a good accent or actually speak Swiss German, what is important is that I understand most of the variations (same with Ticinese and Italian).

When I once said to an ex-girlfirend (from Schwyz) that I spoke Swiss-German, she laughed and said "No, you don't. You speak Schriftdeutsch with a Swiss accent!

Tom
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
discrimination, job ads, language




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Homeschooling - mother tongue languages, home country programs et al. MusicChick Education 0 27.02.2016 10:04
I am an au pair and I am forced to teach the kids my mother tongue fpcsstnjjk Employment 22 26.04.2015 21:56
MS Office 2007 in Foreign but want it in Mother Tongue? NotAllThere Other/general 2 25.04.2010 13:51
English (as Mother Tongue) Speech Therapist in Zurich and area? kalahari Girl Family matters/health 4 17.02.2009 10:20
Work in tourism Industry - Mother tongue = Spanish GUSI Employment 2 13.04.2007 10:01


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 03:44.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0