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  #101  
Old 11.05.2021, 07:25
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

Is there an actual point to this thread, or is it still Friday?

Tom
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  #102  
Old 11.05.2021, 07:30
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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I used to work in the UK, with language, and it was an art form selecting the right words in the right order. It's a beautiful thing when one can articulate eloquently. It also can be very specific especially when it comes to specifications and contracts.

All that seemed to go out of the window when I moved to Switzerland. Sure there were documents with English words in but it seemed everything was done verbally and no-one actually looked into what was written. Even if something was very precisely and clearly written in English it would be over-ruled by a predominantly non-native English speaking workforce. It didn't seem to matter what was written. A=B except when someone else decides that it isn't. If a well written document is like a symphony orchestra the documents I saw here were like having to endure a primary school recorder performance. Then you get those who learn the odd English saying and slip it into conversation thinking they're demonstrating a native knowledge even though they have no idea what the saying means. Of course though I'm grateful for the privilege of being able to work in continental Europe without having to speak another language and I like the different cultures.

Having said that, going back to England, things are not always better and often worse. No-one here says "should of went" (for should have gone) for example. Those kind of things are from native English speakers, people whose mother tongue is English. It's not always a good thing.
Basically you're sad that banks or other companies don't hire only native English speakers? It looks like that to me.

Well, deal with it. It's the same for the multitude of German or Swiss companies here which are more than OK with one's approximative German. I didn't hear anyone complaining about my German here. I bet my syntax is not always perfect.

This linguistic intolerance is one of the reasons for which I didn't want to move to the French part when we were offered this possibility. I know the French. They would laugh, literally in your face, at the slightest error of pronunciation. Have never encountered this attitude with any native German speakers.

They might ask for a native speaker level and that's OK, it means the role really needs it. And you know what? Even if it's a subtle way of actively protecting certain jobs for the local workforce, it's still OK. All countries do that.

Last edited by greenmount; 11.05.2021 at 08:15.
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  #103  
Old 11.05.2021, 08:12
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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His grandmother's tongue was German but he was probably just well educated.
I like when people master languages that they do not need.
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  #104  
Old 11.05.2021, 08:34
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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For some patients, the feeling of connectedness, of being like-minded, is very important when a consulting a medical professional, and many find relief or become willing to open up once they find a medical professional with the same mother tongue.
True, although speaking from my experience it's the level of empathy that counts in these professions, not a specific common language. My last German language teacher here was someone who was educated in German starting with kindergarten in my home country and could really explain every bit and nuance in terms I could immediately understand. But it takes a degree in philology and pedagogy, if say my kids will be asked to perform the same task they won't be able to do it without a proper formal training even if they (theoretically) are native speakers of both languages.
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Old 11.05.2021, 09:17
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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Basically you're sad that banks or other companies don't hire only native English speakers? It looks like that to me.

Well, deal with it. It's the same for the multitude of German or Swiss companies here which are more than OK with one's approximative German. I didn't hear anyone complaining about my German here. I bet my syntax is not always perfect.

This linguistic intolerance is one of the reasons for which I didn't want to move to the French part when we were offered this possibility. I know the French. They would laugh, literally in your face, at the slightest error of pronunciation. Have never encountered this attitude with any native German speakers.

They might ask for a native speaker level and that's OK, it means the role really needs it. And you know what? Even if it's a subtle way of actively protecting certain jobs for the local workforce, it's still OK. All countries do that.
The Swiss French are really quite tolerant in general as well, I’m constantly being complimented on my French and people are very willing to go out of their way to help me in a conversation if I’m struggling, even in stores etc. Of course you find the odd grumpy one, but my trips to Bern where I have tried my best to speak German have also resulted in a few grumpy responses. We have a lot of migrants here in Suisse Romande, most are thus used to interacting with non native speakers in one capacity or another.
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  #106  
Old 11.05.2021, 09:47
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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The key bit missing in this discussion: for what job was the ad?

English is not my first language, so I simply accept that I will never be a Radio Host on the bbc... and I think it’s ok if the SRF does the same. If they were hiring a chef or a cleaner is it more debatable...
The job ad is for this a "Informatiker / Geoinformatiker (m/w/d) für Infrastruktur & GIS". I guess that the requirement is because you are going to have contact with customers.
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  #107  
Old 11.05.2021, 09:55
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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The job ad is for this a "Informatiker / Geoinformatiker (m/w/d) für Infrastruktur & GIS". I guess that the requirement is because you are going to have contact with customers.
Yes. Just means that perfect German is required.
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  #108  
Old 11.05.2021, 09:56
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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The Swiss French are really quite tolerant in general as well..
Yes. Very helpful to integrate, learn the language, etc. Especially in professional setting.
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  #109  
Old 11.05.2021, 10:14
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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The job ad is for this a "Informatiker / Geoinformatiker (m/w/d) für Infrastruktur & GIS". I guess that the requirement is because you are going to have contact with customers.
Its a job where you have extensive customer contact and those customers are the infrastructure departments of small villages and towns. I find it perfectly reasonable to ask for the language skills to match that job.
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  #110  
Old 11.05.2021, 11:02
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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The job ad is for this a "Informatiker / Geoinformatiker (m/w/d) für Infrastruktur & GIS". I guess that the requirement is because you are going to have contact with customers.
So, no surprises: Technical training / studies in the field of geomatics (university of applied sciences or equivalent).

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Unless you are like me, and can function in a working environment in all 4 Swiss languages.

Tom
Indeed, I'm a lazy guy. I flow like water, following the path that offers less resistance. If I wanted cut-throat competition I've stayed at home.
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  #111  
Old 11.05.2021, 11:12
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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Unless you are like me, and can function in a working environment in all 4 Swiss languages.

Tom
Even in Romansch? I'm curious if not speaking the local dialect is an issue in Graubünden, though they all speak Swiss-German in my experience.
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  #112  
Old 11.05.2021, 11:23
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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Even in Romansch? I'm curious if not speaking the local dialect is an issue in Graubünden, though they all speak Swiss-German in my experience.
I speak a few words,, enough to buy gas, icecream, and beer.

Otherwise, I speak Italian there.

Tom
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Old 11.05.2021, 12:04
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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Its a job where you have extensive customer contact and those customers are the infrastructure departments of small villages and towns. I find it perfectly reasonable to ask for the language skills to match that job.
yeah, thanks! I wasn't complaining at any given moment about the requirement. For me, again, the weird thing was the "mother tongue" word that called my attention for the reasons stated on a previous post. For me on the requirements should say "native speaker level of Swiss German" and that would have been perfectly fine and totally understandable. But that "Muttersprache" made me grind my gears.
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  #114  
Old 11.05.2021, 12:10
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

I think the requirement for German lies in this part of the work: "Fähigkeiten im Konzeptionieren, Erklären und Darstellen von technischen Sachverhalten" and the fact that some of the clients are municipalities. The instructions just have to be totally correct. Is seems a reasonable requirement, to me.
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  #115  
Old 11.05.2021, 12:18
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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For me, again, the weird thing was the "mother tongue" word that called my attention for the reasons stated on a previous post. For me on the requirements should say "native speaker level of Swiss German" and that would have been perfectly fine and totally understandable. But that "Muttersprache" made me grind my gears.
But they do the same here in Italian, so it's hardly unusual!

"addetta/o bancaria/o back office & corrispondenza (madrelingua tedesco) in Lugano"

Tom
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  #116  
Old 11.05.2021, 21:14
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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I have to echo a previous post - I really don‘t understand your post ��
It also doesn’t seem to be in context with the general discussion? What’s a “role mate”?

Oh well, guess just a ‘bot
A role in this context means a job
Mate is a term of endearment like a friend
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  #117  
Old 11.05.2021, 21:17
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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But they do the same here in Italian, so it's hardly unusual!

"addetta/o bancaria/o back office & corrispondenza (madrelingua tedesco) in Lugano"

Tom
The original question was about the legality not acceptability.

Socially accepted is not the same as legally accepted. This is definitely not Legally accepted.
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  #118  
Old 11.05.2021, 21:46
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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Its a job where you have extensive customer contact and those customers are the infrastructure departments of small villages and towns. I find it perfectly reasonable to ask for the language skills to match that job.
Fluent yes, native no.

I can't think of any job where fluent non-native speakers wouldn't suffice. For instance, I'm sure you as a native German speaker have the English to do this job were it in English despite occasional harmless Germanisms.

Besides, there isn't real definition of what constitutes a "native" language and even less a "mother tounge" to the extent they are distinguishable.
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Old 11.05.2021, 21:49
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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This is definitely not Legally accepted.
Of COURSE it is, and why wouldn't it be?

Clearly people like you will never be hired.

Il porco, you need to look elsewhere to feed your paranoia.

Tom

Last edited by st2lemans; 12.05.2021 at 09:31.
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  #120  
Old 11.05.2021, 22:00
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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A role in this context means a job
Mate is a term of endearment like a friend
Someone else mentioned "role" first.

"Mate" at the end of a statement is usually somewhat passive-aggressive - I call you my friend but you're not my friend, mate. Different in other contexts.
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