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  #121  
Old 11.05.2021, 22:20
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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Fluent yes, native no.

I can't think of any job where fluent non-native speakers wouldn't suffice. For instance, I'm sure you as a native German speaker have the English to do this job were it in English despite occasional harmless Germanisms.

Besides, there isn't real definition of what constitutes a "native" language and even less a "mother tounge" to the extent they are distinguishable.
It might actually be easier for me in English than Swiss German. I know it’s hard to believe and to explain but as soon as I speak do Swiss feel the need to make an effort to speak standard German. For people who fix roads for a living is that probably even more of an effort and one they don’t like to do. If they are your customers would my JD also say Swiss German. I wouldn’t call it Muttersprachler, but the Swiss do. It’s that simple. We can argue forever if that’s discrimination, I’d say probably yes, but much less than many other daily life facts in CH. And nothing stops anyone from applying anyways. Just because HR wrote a boiler plate JD doesn’t mean you are really out.
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  #122  
Old 11.05.2021, 22:30
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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Of COURSE it is, and why wouldn't it be?

Clearly people like you will never be hired.

Il porco,, you need to look elsewhere to feed your paranoia.

Tom
A bit like it was perfectly legal to treat Oprah the way she was treated. Like I said before things are a bit third world around here.
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  #123  
Old 11.05.2021, 22:33
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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It might actually be easier for me in English than Swiss German.
I'm not so sure!
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  #124  
Old 11.05.2021, 23:00
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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Someone else mentioned "role" first.

"Mate" at the end of a statement is usually somewhat passive-aggressive - I call you my friend but you're not my friend, mate. Different in other contexts.

Mate is not the same as the American equivalent of Pal or Buddy, both of which have passive aggressive connotations.
The fact that I have explain the meaning does suggest that it is indeed misplaced among the peers in this forum.

Probably a more fitting synonym would be a companion, comrade.

I suppose the one could say the same about the use of the term Native Speaker. The term is as passive aggressive to a Brit as a Pal is to an American. But the question is a Legal one and a Job Description (JD) goes out to a diverse set of people.
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  #125  
Old 12.05.2021, 07:49
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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Mate is not the same as the American equivalent of Pal or Buddy, both of which have passive aggressive connotations.
Your understanding of your own native language appears to be somewhat lacking, as is your own use thereof as displayed in earlier posts.

There are many nuances of the word in UK (and perhaps even more in Australian) usage, including exactly that sort of scenario. Just like these more American ones you mention, context is everything, and non-native speakers are often unable to spot where it's used in a sarcastic, ironic or P-A way.

I recall overusing the word when I was a teenager, and certainly came across people who incorrectly inferred much more to it that was ever intended ( I drastically reduced its use when I realised). The way you used it was inherently confusing because of the poor grammar and missing punctuation, unsurprisingly leading some to completely fail to understand you and others to think you're being passive-aggressive by using it.
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  #126  
Old 12.05.2021, 08:23
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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A bit like it was perfectly legal to treat Oprah the way she was treated. Like I said before things are a bit third world around here.
I like you raising questions. That's always good, also seeing the reactions of people here tells me that it is a very good thing

But I do not like you using the phrase "3rd world" pejoratively. It doesn't help the mission you yourself started here. I think you did that on purpose, it's ironic.
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  #127  
Old 12.05.2021, 09:30
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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Mate is not the same as the American equivalent of Pal or Buddy.
Indeed, it's someone you have sex with to reproduce.

Tom
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  #128  
Old 12.05.2021, 09:33
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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The original question was about the legality not acceptability.

Socially accepted is not the same as legally accepted. This is definitely not Legally accepted.
If they need a German speaker, they need a German speaker.

What is not legal about that?

Tom
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  #129  
Old 12.05.2021, 09:49
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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If they need a German speaker, they need a German speaker.

What is not legal about that?

Tom
What is on the legally grey area is to ask for someone with German as mother tongue, for the reasons I stated before. Mainly it's something that is intrinsically linked to someone and can't be changed or gained later on in life and for that reason it's something you can ask for unless it's really really really justified.

As for asking for a German speaker, at native level, it's totally fine. Even if you ask for a Zürichdeutsch or Stadt-Mundart or whatever. If, of course, it's justify for the position.

My original question is solved mainly because we have figured out here, specially with the help of @Treverus, is that what they are asking is for is high / native level of German and that around here they use the term mother tongue for that level.
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  #130  
Old 12.05.2021, 09:53
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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My original question is solved mainly because we have figured out here, specially with the help of @Treverus, is that what they are asking is for is high / native level of German and that around here they use the term mother tongue for that level.
It's used EVERYWHERE for that, not just around here.

Tom
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  #131  
Old 12.05.2021, 10:48
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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It's used EVERYWHERE for that, not just around here.

Tom
Sorry Tom… but I have to heavily disagree with you regarding "EVERYWHERE".

In the EU is ilegal to even ask for a native speaker. (https://teflequityadvocates.com/2014...ds-and-eu-law/)

And I think you are from the US, where I also highly doubt you can put on a job ad that you are looking for a native english speaker.

Again… What you can ask for and I think it's totally fine, it's for a level of a language. I totally agree after that on the interview can happen a lot of things.

But it's clearly NOT used EVERYWHERE the term MOTHER TONGUE.
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  #132  
Old 12.05.2021, 14:30
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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Sorry Tom… but I have to heavily disagree with you regarding "EVERYWHERE".

In the EU is ilegal to even ask for a native speaker. (https://teflequityadvocates.com/2014...ds-and-eu-law/)

And I think you are from the US, where I also highly doubt you can put on a job ad that you are looking for a native english speaker.

Again… What you can ask for and I think it's totally fine, it's for a level of a language. I totally agree after that on the interview can happen a lot of things.

But it's clearly NOT used EVERYWHERE the term MOTHER TONGUE.
Oh, I'm sure in the EU they somehow manage to surpass the anti-discrimination legislation.

EU has wonderful laws that are not respected so isn't it the same thing? Sometimes I prefer people to be brutally honest.
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  #133  
Old 12.05.2021, 14:58
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

I think dishonesty is brutal.
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  #134  
Old 12.05.2021, 15:07
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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What is on the legally grey area is to ask for someone with German as mother tongue, for the reasons I stated before. Mainly it's something that is intrinsically linked to someone and can't be changed or gained later on in life and for that reason it's something you can ask for unless it's really really really justified.

As for asking for a German speaker, at native level, it's totally fine. Even if you ask for a Zürichdeutsch or Stadt-Mundart or whatever. If, of course, it's justify for the position.

My original question is solved mainly because we have figured out here, specially with the help of @Treverus, is that what they are asking is for is high / native level of German and that around here they use the term mother tongue for that level.
No, the interpretation for the sake of the job might well be that but the term doesn't in itself mean that, more what you write in the first sentence. Even if you have a mother-tongue it doesn't necessarily make you any good at it, at I would say that the job might also not need a high level of German. If you go around here talking let's say 'more correct' German people will think you're up yourself.
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  #135  
Old 12.05.2021, 15:10
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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Your understanding of your own native language appears to be somewhat lacking, as is your own use thereof as displayed in earlier posts.
I would have put a very large amount of money on English not being his native language, or at least it's not his mother-tongue ;-)
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  #136  
Old 12.05.2021, 15:12
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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Mate is not the same as the American equivalent of Pal or Buddy, both of which have passive aggressive connotations.
The fact that I have explain the meaning does suggest that it is indeed misplaced among the peers in this forum.

Probably a more fitting synonym would be a companion, comrade.

I suppose the one could say the same about the use of the term Native Speaker. The term is as passive aggressive to a Brit as a Pal is to an American. But the question is a Legal one and a Job Description (JD) goes out to a diverse set of people.
How would you know? Your writing makes me mate
I think you have a problem with English pal.
Listen buddy, I think you're wrong.
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  #137  
Old 12.05.2021, 15:19
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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Sorry Tom… but I have to heavily disagree with you regarding "EVERYWHERE".

In the EU is ilegal to even ask for a native speaker. (https://teflequityadvocates.com/2014...ds-and-eu-law/)

And I think you are from the US, where I also highly doubt you can put on a job ad that you are looking for a native english speaker.

Again… What you can ask for and I think it's totally fine, it's for a level of a language. I totally agree after that on the interview can happen a lot of things.

But it's clearly NOT used EVERYWHERE the term MOTHER TONGUE.
In my usual feverish pursuit of procrastination, I waded through this tread and really regret not doing some work for a change. IMHO, OP, “Muttersprachler” means a person who won’t stick out like a sore thumb and get the job rolling w/o clients bursting their sides while writhing on the floor.

Your (MAROG come to mind too) pointless asides to discrimination and how EU directives (didn’t read, no more time to waste) prohibit such practices, are just more guff.

Why do you think it strange that a Ticino bank (st2lemans: post #115) advertises a position for a German speaker? Obviously the assigned clients are used to acceptance of their language and thanks to sufficient assets haven’t bothered to improve their Italian.

As mentioned, haven’t read the EU directive you linked, but if implied prohibition of “native” language skills are valid, I wish the 55 YO laid off Danish bank teller all the best when applying for the open job in Calabria. I’m sure they’ll get the hang of what the Terrone in Catanzaro are talking about after a while.
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  #138  
Old 12.05.2021, 15:32
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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As mentioned, haven’t read the EU directive you linked, but if implied prohibition of “native” language skills are valid, I wish the 55 YO laid off Danish bank teller all the best when applying for the open job in Calabria. I’m sure they’ll get the hang of what the Terrone in Catanzaro are talking about after a while.
I'm not sure the EU laws are literally prohibiting the use of word "native" in a job advertisment or if that is the interpretation of the person who wrote the article quoted here. On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if that would be the case since the EU legislation apparently prohibits labels and ads that favour locally produced goods. Or some countries respect these indications from EU more than others, I don't know.
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  #139  
Old 12.05.2021, 15:36
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

Who cares?

If somebody thinks her/his german is good enough to pass for mother tongue or whatever, just apply for the job.

If, during the job interview, you will get the very german joke they tell you and you are able to say something witty in return, you are good to go!

As somebody mentioned, sometimes you need to have a native-mother tongue-whatever person because the whole team is that way, or because the job requires deep local knowledge.

I grew up in Switzerland, and have seen this kind of ads all over Switzerland. Here in CH Romande, you will see it very often for government or office jobs, for example.
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  #140  
Old 12.05.2021, 15:41
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Re: German as a mother tongue?

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But I do not like you using the phrase "3rd world" pejoratively. It doesn't help the mission you yourself started here. I think you did that on purpose, it's ironic.
3rd world is a pejorative term.

I'm glad you don't like it used pejoratively though, it's so meta.
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