Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Employment  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old Yesterday, 10:02
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Vaud
Posts: 969
Groaned at 114 Times in 57 Posts
Thanked 489 Times in 260 Posts
markalex has earned the respect of manymarkalex has earned the respect of manymarkalex has earned the respect of many
Big Data, Data Bias

Watching a netflix documentary on data bias this one, coded bias it is called.

https://www.netflix.com/title/81328723

And couldn't help but think that the RAV could do something about this?

You see as it explains in this documentary big companies today use automated systems to filter thru CVs. Now those that know what sort of filters are used don't want to tell, but it affects all of us eventually. Indeed in the documentary they actually admit those using the system have no idea how it selects potential employees, they just work there... its a black box.

An example given names amazon who discovered that their employment portal was disqualifying women, no kidding. If you used the word "woman" on your CV, you were disqualified. No I don't know quite how or who discovered this, but I would like to see something similar built by the RAV that could use the data they had to identify companies in Switzerland who do the same sort of profiling.

What do you think?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old Yesterday, 10:31
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 2,467
Groaned at 32 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 3,358 Times in 1,559 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Big Data, Data Bias

Quote:
View Post
Watching a netflix documentary on data bias this one, coded bias it is called.

https://www.netflix.com/title/81328723

And couldn't help but think that the RAV could do something about this?

You see as it explains in this documentary big companies today use automated systems to filter thru CVs. Now those that know what sort of filters are used don't want to tell, but it affects all of us eventually. Indeed in the documentary they actually admit those using the system have no idea how it selects potential employees, they just work there... its a black box.

An example given names amazon who discovered that their employment portal was disqualifying women, no kidding. If you used the word "woman" on your CV, you were disqualified. No I don't know quite how or who discovered this, but I would like to see something similar built by the RAV that could use the data they had to identify companies in Switzerland who do the same sort of profiling.

What do you think?
Well, HR can hardly use Excel and Outlook...

Also, most job positions are filled by networking which is more bias that any algorithm. Simply because the CV is not evaluated by the code at all.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Axa for this useful post:
  #3  
Old Yesterday, 10:58
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Vaud
Posts: 969
Groaned at 114 Times in 57 Posts
Thanked 489 Times in 260 Posts
markalex has earned the respect of manymarkalex has earned the respect of manymarkalex has earned the respect of many
Re: Big Data, Data Bias

Quote:
View Post
Well, HR can hardly use Excel and Outlook...

Also, most job positions are filled by networking which is more bias that any algorithm. Simply because the CV is not evaluated by the code at all.
Sure, but you've missed the point. If you signed into and then out of RAV, in theory at least it is because you found a job.

If you found a job then RAV have the data as to who offered it and indeed a shedload data as to who you've been applying too.

Now if somebody took the time to do an analysis of said data they could see for example that nobody older than say 50 ever gets a job at Nestle [completely made up, I don't know if that is the case].

Of course what you then do with said information is a different story. Perhaps the advisors in RAV could tell their clients not to waist their time with Nestle cause they're evidently using AI that thinks everyone retires at 50.

Maybe we could have a change in the law that says global corporations like Nestle need to make sure their recruitment bots don't do this sort of thing.

Everyone reading this forum will eventually hit 50 [most I suspect already have ] in my example and if they lose their jobs will also either need to have had a successful career or be planning to die very poor.

They're not making it up on this coded bias documentary it the way the tech is going?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old Yesterday, 11:21
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 4,388
Groaned at 206 Times in 163 Posts
Thanked 7,110 Times in 3,176 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Big Data, Data Bias

Quote:
What do you think?
You are late to the party, if you are only discovering this now!

You know the bit of advice everyone gets about tailoring their CV for the application? Well if you are not doing it, then you are less likely to pass the filtering process. Using the same phrases and skill set as in the advertisement will up your chances considerably, as will a well written CV.

These filters can also produce indexes on things like readability, perceived education level of author, commonality with others etc. So, using a CV writing service might actually disadvantage you.

On the other hand, the use of agencies is common and their ability does not go beyond a simple database search. And given the number of times I have been contacted about jobs Iím unsuitable for, they donít seem to be very sophisticated.

As for the RAV, they donít have that mission and I very much doubt that they have that data in a way that it could be used for such a purpose without considerable public money and organization. They have the list of your applications, but they donít normally require you to sent them the details of your application for instance.
__________________
"There is no passion to be found playing small - in settling for a life that is less than the one you are capable of living." - Nelson Mandela
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old Yesterday, 11:39
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 4,388
Groaned at 206 Times in 163 Posts
Thanked 7,110 Times in 3,176 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Big Data, Data Bias

Quote:
Everyone reading this forum will eventually hit 50 [most I suspect already have ] in my example and if they lose their jobs will also either need to have had a successful career or be planning to die very poor.
You are making a lot of assumptions that donít stack up. Many of us on this forum are past fifty and have experience of the RAV past 50!

The first youíll discover is that they have a very low expectation of you finding a job and they are a lot more flexible about controlling you etc. In fact they are more interested in that you keep active rather than sitting at home doing nothing but applying for jobs.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old Yesterday, 11:47
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 2,467
Groaned at 32 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 3,358 Times in 1,559 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Big Data, Data Bias

Quote:
View Post
Sure, but you've missed the point. If you signed into and then out of RAV, in theory at least it is because you found a job.

If you found a job then RAV have the data as to who offered it and indeed a shedload data as to who you've been applying too.

Now if somebody took the time to do an analysis of said data they could see for example that nobody older than say 50 ever gets a job at Nestle [completely made up, I don't know if that is the case].
Central planning? It seems the communist dreams are still alive in big data companies. More data and more powerful computers will solve everything. Heard stories that it didn't work that well. Let's better stick to random market interactions, even if they're not optimal.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Axa for this useful post:
  #7  
Old Yesterday, 11:56
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 11,156
Groaned at 241 Times in 204 Posts
Thanked 23,402 Times in 9,952 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Big Data, Data Bias

RAV is only one small pat of the puzzle.

I assume that most people applying for and getting jobs have never been on RAV.

Your proposed data mapping scheme would need to capture those too.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #8  
Old Yesterday, 12:50
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,169
Groaned at 293 Times in 222 Posts
Thanked 18,588 Times in 6,497 Posts
k_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Big Data, Data Bias

Quote:
View Post
Watching a netflix documentary on data bias this one, coded bias it is called.

https://www.netflix.com/title/81328723

And couldn't help but think that the RAV could do something about this?

You see as it explains in this documentary big companies today use automated systems to filter thru CVs. Now those that know what sort of filters are used don't want to tell, but it affects all of us eventually. Indeed in the documentary they actually admit those using the system have no idea how it selects potential employees, they just work there... its a black box.

An example given names amazon who discovered that their employment portal was disqualifying women, no kidding. If you used the word "woman" on your CV, you were disqualified. No I don't know quite how or who discovered this, but I would like to see something similar built by the RAV that could use the data they had to identify companies in Switzerland who do the same sort of profiling.

What do you think?
I didn't see the documentary but don't think it is applicable here. GDPR article 22 is the relevant legislation.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank k_and_e for this useful post:
  #9  
Old Yesterday, 13:20
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Vaud
Posts: 969
Groaned at 114 Times in 57 Posts
Thanked 489 Times in 260 Posts
markalex has earned the respect of manymarkalex has earned the respect of manymarkalex has earned the respect of many
Re: Big Data, Data Bias

You know if someone had suggested to me we could launch dozens of satellites and create a global positioning system with it, I wouldn't have believed them.

It happened.

But listen back to the thought. Cambridge Analytica are another great example of how using big data big companies can find out and map all sorts of information about individuals. They claimed they had 200 data points on everyone they were tracking, and believe me you they were tracking millions of people. I watched the netflix documentry on that too, very interesting.

https://www.netflix.com/title/80117542

But wait I am talking about RAV. What is the unemployment rate in Switzerland 4.85%, with a population of what 8.54 million, so I am talking about approximately 410 000 records, most likely less. In computational terms it's a number an iPhone could crunch, it's is far from CA big brother.

They have all the data you would need about the applicants, they know when you were born, when you came to Switzerland, who you worked for, when you started, when you stopped, how frequently you changed jobs, how old you are, how much money you have paid into the system, how much it has paid out, how much money you earned. its all on file, it just needs somebody to start making more sense of it.

I don't care who let's argue Philip Morris have employed thru networking. I am interested in RAV applications. I am interested in providing more data for people looking for work who are registered with the RAV. They have the data on a computer that could be cleaned up, sorted and used more effectively to serve everybody ultimately. It isn't in anybodies interest to have anybody on the RAV is it.

Sure we all know the older the get, the less lightly it is you'll find a job. We know too that if your woman it'll be harder than a man. If you're black harder than if your white. If your're from Eastern Europe harder than if you were from Western Europe. But listen, these are all generalisations. We could come up with some real data using the RAV data. And frankly change the system so it works better for everybody.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old Yesterday, 13:54
Traubert's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,053
Groaned at 11 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 2,011 Times in 716 Posts
Traubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Big Data, Data Bias

As a data analyst, RAV is a small data set that I would say putting on to a Big Data platform as overkill. I would think normal analytics apply, but hardly anything worth applying any AI or machine learning to. The value would be in selling the data, but 1. That's not very Swiss, and 2. It's kinda worthless since anyone who would want it can do it for themselves.

Straight up reports that anyone who could or should be interested in for purposes of analysis, yes. Big brother, no.

Recruiters have been scanning CVs for decades now. Anyone who uses a Job Search engine or portal and thinks a hu-man is reading it is mistaken. Search word scans.

Also, what would the RAV do without their RAV people, put them out of work and replace them with an algorithm.

Extend your idea beyond RAV and maybe you have something interesting to look at, but just RAV, not now, not yet. Small potatoes.

There's a difference between Big Data, and regular old relational data, and where/how they are used.
__________________
We are monkeys with money and guns.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Traubert for this useful post:
  #11  
Old Today, 09:50
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 13,080
Groaned at 209 Times in 186 Posts
Thanked 18,976 Times in 7,732 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Big Data, Data Bias

Quote:
View Post
You see as it explains in this documentary big companies today use automated systems to filter thru CVs.
When I was recruiting, I mixed up the CVs, put them in a pile, and put the top half in the bin.

I didn't want to employ anyone who's unlucky.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank NotAllThere for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
employement, statistics




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Best for data roaming? Island Monkey TV/internet/telephone 20 07.03.2018 10:38
Market Data desireemrusso Business & entrepreneur 1 06.11.2017 21:12
Business Analytics, Big Data, Data science jobs in Switzerland dreamsis Employment 1 20.06.2014 12:39
Accessing data from an old IDE HDD PaddyG General off-topic 13 17.05.2011 10:18
How much data does VoIP use? nikolay TV/internet/telephone 9 11.12.2010 00:11


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 18:24.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0