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  #21  
Old 08.06.2021, 23:49
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Re: Job Application Rejected

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I can somewhat understand your concerns, but changing the side of view, you demonstrate that you lean towards unjustified discrimination. Basically, if someone is applying for a job you should feel happy you can give the opportunity. Everyone understand that they are subject to probation period.

However, some people raise the concern that when someone comes here for the first time he/she might simply not like it and leave within a few months. That's a fair concern as then everything starts all over again.
It looks to me like you have not had the dubious pleasure of sifting through piles of ridiculous job applications after your boss has decided that he wanted to take a look at everyone who applied, not just the pre-selection made by HR. Between the unemployed sending out applications to even the least likely matches for their skillset and those who think certain jobs are an ideal foot in the door for a big company, it really doesn't feel like an opportunity, more like herding cats.

Collage of "The New Dream Team at Megacorp" anyone? In case you are wondering: For this crime against all design and copyright principles you take the website pictures of everyone on the team that you want to work for, use Word to create a team picture mock-up and add your own picture in the middle. Garnish with logos taken from the website without permission, add some WordArt, and VOILÀ. HR did give the young man a call but mostly to explain that NO. HELL NO. WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?

Yes, some discrimination is really daft and narrow-minded, but sometimes, an instant rejection based on someone using Calibri for their CV and double spacing after full stops is simply the right decision*. Unless you have no taste and write your correspondence on typewriters... I would say that not being located in the country where you plan to work and with no immediate plans of relocating, it doesn't really make sense for a company to hire you. At least I hope that's going to be the case for a little while longer, otherwise the trend to outsource will only accelerate and where will the native Swiss go if their own country doesn't have jobs for them anymore? We like having healthcare, great public transport and schools without handing over the majority of our income in the form of taxes...

*Cum granum salis. But only a small granum. Calibri is essentially Corporate Comic Sans and deserves to be relegated to Font Purgatory.
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  #22  
Old 08.06.2021, 23:52
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Re: Job Application Rejected

the photoshop team picture is pretty creative though...

now what's wrong with Calibri???
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  #23  
Old 09.06.2021, 00:19
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Re: Job Application Rejected

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with no immediate plans of relocating
Oh no, I fully agree that the competences must be there. My point is only that when someone applies to a place he/she for sure thought over about the relocation and it's on him/her by default, otherwise one would clearly state the objective in the application, like "looking for remote work" or "acceptance subject to a decent relocation package".


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What planet are you on?
huh? No harm, but don't sell me fairy tales that all the employers out there are looking first if I would have a decent career there, decent salary, etc, etc, rather than if I can do the job and their budget will match. Seriously, no one is sifting out applications because they think that the candidate could have a better life out there, it's the contrary, companies work hard to create the illusion for the candidates that their opportunity is the best for them.
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  #24  
Old 09.06.2021, 09:07
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Re: Job Application Rejected

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the photoshop team picture is pretty creative though...

now what's wrong with Calibri???
It would be - if it was done well, using the right tools and without taking material without consent.

As for Calibri - picking a default font is indicative of having default ideas and standards. It tells me you will say things like "who cares about what it looks like, you get the idea, right?". It was created in a hurry for lower quality computer screens than we have now and is definitely the wrong choice for something that is printed on paper.

It's clunky and the kerning hurts my eyes. The rounded edges speak of wearing a "fun" tie to tell people you're a fun guy. It's the beige of fonts, the all inclusive package deal to Tenerife (English food served) of typography, the off the rack polyester suit of written correspondence.
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Old 09.06.2021, 09:14
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Re: Job Application Rejected

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As for Calibri - picking a default font is indicative of having default ideas and standards. It tells me you will say things like "who cares about what it looks like, you get the idea, right?".
LOL

I would understand if you were talking about the inappropriateness of Comic Sans in the professional world, but this is hilarious.

To the silliness of your comment - CV/Resume-writing "professionals" online regularly list it under top X advised fonts to use (precisely because it is "safe", next to Cambria, Helvetica, Arial, Times New Roman and some other serif and sans serif bunch).

Your personal preference and despising it should not be general advice to others.

I am using TNR - mostly because the least space it takes so my content fits as I want it to.
I am such a non-default special guy.

Last edited by gipfelisturmer; 09.06.2021 at 09:51.
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  #26  
Old 09.06.2021, 09:46
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Re: Job Application Rejected

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It looks to me like you have not had the dubious pleasure of sifting through piles of ridiculous job applications after your boss has decided that he wanted to take a look at everyone who applied, not just the pre-selection made by HR. Between the unemployed sending out applications to even the least likely matches for their skillset and those who think certain jobs are an ideal foot in the door for a big company, it really doesn't feel like an opportunity, more like herding cats.

Collage of "The New Dream Team at Megacorp" anyone? In case you are wondering: For this crime against all design and copyright principles you take the website pictures of everyone on the team that you want to work for, use Word to create a team picture mock-up and add your own picture in the middle. Garnish with logos taken from the website without permission, add some WordArt, and VOILÀ. HR did give the young man a call but mostly to explain that NO. HELL NO. WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?

Yes, some discrimination is really daft and narrow-minded, but sometimes, an instant rejection based on someone using Calibri for their CV and double spacing after full stops is simply the right decision*. Unless you have no taste and write your correspondence on typewriters... I would say that not being located in the country where you plan to work and with no immediate plans of relocating, it doesn't really make sense for a company to hire you. At least I hope that's going to be the case for a little while longer, otherwise the trend to outsource will only accelerate and where will the native Swiss go if their own country doesn't have jobs for them anymore? We like having healthcare, great public transport and schools without handing over the majority of our income in the form of taxes...

*Cum granum salis. But only a small granum. Calibri is essentially Corporate Comic Sans and deserves to be relegated to Font Purgatory.
The only thing I can honestly think of is: who hurt you?

I think you're blaming every applicant who's willing to grow, for your boss having you go through a bunch of work you didn't sign up for. The problem with HR is that they have too many options and start getting arrogant, which you only prove to me.

Have you ever zoomed out, during meditation or moment of reflection, that you're actually getting stressed over someone's font they use? It's honestly embarrassing how HR is only looking for that one unicorn and tears everyone else to pieces.
If you have any experience working with good people, you'll know that the most brilliant people aren't always the most interesting/fancy/cool people. My clients loved talking with our engineers who sometimes would be a bit nerdy. But they knew their work inside and out and could perfectly explain all the technicalities. And they amazed clients with what they could design and how fast they could think of solutions.
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  #27  
Old 09.06.2021, 10:18
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Re: Job Application Rejected

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LOL

I would understand if you were talking about the inappropriateness of Comic Sans in the professional world, but this is hilarious.

To the silliness of your comment - CV/Resume-writing "professionals" online regularly list it under top X advised fonts to use (precisely because it is "safe", next to Cambria, Helvetica, Arial, Times New Roman and some other serif and sans serif bunch).

Your personal preference and despising it should not be general advice to others.

I am using TNR - mostly because the least space it takes so my content fits as I want it to.
I am such a non-default special guy.
That's precisely why I call it Corporate Comic Sans
And as you say: other options are available which are more visually pleasing while still working well for CV purposes. There are entire books written and conferences held about the use of fonts, so I'm not the only patient on this particular ward of the insane asylum of humanity.

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The only thing I can honestly think of is: who hurt you?
[...]
I think you're blaming every applicant who's willing to grow, for your boss having you go through a bunch of work you didn't sign up for. The problem with HR is that they have too many options and start getting arrogant, which you only prove to me.
Nobody hurt me, I studied Communications and Media Design. And if you think I am being 100% serious, then I am in turn a bit worried about you.

Your point about HR would be valid to your evaluation - if I actually worked in HR. I was a team assistant at the time and my then boss couldn't understand why he was unable to find more people like the ones he already had. He suspected that HR was filtering out viable candidates based on false assumptions, so he decided that his assistants should do it. We saw some pretty unusual things and were not thrilled to add the work to our already heavy workload, that is correct.

I approached the task from the perspective of wanting someone who is not going to create unnecessary work for me and who has a basic grasp of good typography practice, as it would be part of the role. However, I did not actually turn anyone down based solely on the use of Calibri because that would be nuts and the corporate design rules would take care of that aspect anyway. I did veto a person who had misspelled the job that they did for six months twice in their CV. Attention to detail matters and there were enough better candidates available. Which can hopefully bring us back to the original topic: reasons why someone is rejected. The main one usually being that a person with fewer minus points is available to hire or someone got a personal recommendation.
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  #28  
Old 10.06.2021, 01:58
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Re: Job Application Rejected

Actually who cares about the font and format. The content gets scanned by the recruitment apps and fed into database. Nobody actually read the original files.

PS. My current job is to develop such web app for those lazy incompetent HR's so they could ask "show me the best 10 candidates from this week" and they get the answer supported by some "fake" fancy colorful graphs, because HR people love pie charts, bars and %
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  #29  
Old 10.06.2021, 06:50
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Re: Job Application Rejected

Have to break a lance for Comic Sans.
;.)
It is actually a great Font for somebody with dyslexia.
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  #30  
Old 10.06.2021, 07:25
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Re: Job Application Rejected

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People who are already residents can send 100+ applications and still get rejected... it is a tough market and you need skills that set you above the rest of qualified individuals already residing here.
Basically you hit the nail on the head.

@OP,

It is a very competitive market, especially when you apply from abroad.
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  #31  
Old 10.06.2021, 07:28
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Re: Job Application Rejected

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Actually who cares about the font and format. The content gets scanned by the recruitment apps and fed into database. Nobody actually read the original files.
Depends on the company. I certainly look at the original files and take note of attention to detail (spelling, consistent formatting) and visual appeal (doesn’t have to be anything special but should make good use of space and stick to 2 pages).
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  #32  
Old 10.06.2021, 08:08
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Re: Job Application Rejected

I am going to suggest something different.

If you want to leave Portugal then look into the paper work you need to get permits to work in other English speaking places. A decade ago I did almost all the paperwork to move to New Zealand, and got an offer. I didn't have a job there, but they offered me a permit to come and find one. Canada is another place that are keen to recruit highly educational, skilled labour. Australia also look to bring in highly educated, young, skilled workers.

The employment market in Switzerland has got a lot more difficult since 2005 across all professionals I would guess. Geneva is flooded with Frenchman, Zurich and Basel by the Germans, and as has been illustrated by the pandemic Ticino by the Italians. And Frenchman favour Frenchman, Germans Germans and Italians Italians, understandably I guess.

Why do you want to work in Switzerland, its hardly the silicon valley of Europe.
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  #33  
Old 10.06.2021, 08:17
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Re: Job Application Rejected

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Why do you want to work in Switzerland, its hardly the silicon valley of Europe.
Yeah I mean seriously, it's not like Switzerland has any redeeming features or anything. Terrible salaries, low quality of life, polluted and desolate landscapes, turbulent and undemocratic politics, located most inconveniently in central Europe.

Why would anyone want to come to Switzerland?
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  #34  
Old 10.06.2021, 08:40
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Re: Job Application Rejected

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The employment market in Switzerland has got a lot more difficult since 2005 across all professionals I would guess. Geneva is flooded with Frenchman, Zurich and Basel by the Germans, and as has been illustrated by the pandemic Ticino by the Italians. And Frenchman favour Frenchman, Germans Germans and Italians Italians, understandably I guess.
Maybe (and I say maybe) in general, but not really in IT.

Ditto for alleged discrimination against "exotic" names and skin colours. Not.
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Old 10.06.2021, 09:05
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Re: Job Application Rejected

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Yeah I mean seriously, it's not like Switzerland has any redeeming features or anything. Terrible salaries, low quality of life, polluted and desolate landscapes, turbulent and undemocratic politics, located most inconveniently in central Europe.

Why would anyone want to come to Switzerland?
All necessary if one is to tolerate living amongst the Swiss Germans :-)
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  #36  
Old 10.06.2021, 10:55
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Re: Job Application Rejected

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All necessary if one is to tolerate living amongst the Swiss Germans :-)
Müemer use ufs Wiesli, du fräche Cheib*?


*Are you angling for us to settle this on the small lawn outside, you cheeky sod?

To be honest, I sometimes don't enjoy the Swiss Germans and I AM one. Well, not genetically, then it's 25% max, but 100% born and raised in Zurich.
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Old 10.06.2021, 11:57
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Re: Job Application Rejected

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Hi,

For the last year, I sent more than 100 applications to work in Switzerland and I always end up receiving an email rejecting the application without even a chance to get an interview.

I have 5 years of experience in IT as a full stack developer and a master's degree. My experience is also in some of the most recognized companies.
I always send my resume and a cover letter that I write specifically to the offer.

Since I live in Portugal, should I send any more documents in order to have more chances?
I only speak Portuguese, Spanish, English and almost no French, can the lack of German and French be an obstacle?


Thanks,
Marcelo

Its absolutely your location. Relocate to CH. Set yourself up here and then apply. You will have a very different experience.
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  #38  
Old 11.06.2021, 13:50
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Re: Job Application Rejected

Yep definitely agree, it's not the best place for IT jobs, but it's not that much behind from Canada, the average of USA except premium locations. Besides work is not everything so since by coincidence I put my foot in Switzerland I'm not prompt to migrate further but I would advise to look at the north America if there's noting else but the desire for better opportunities which drives you now. Ok, maybe apart from IT there are professions for which the best life is here in Switzerland? YMMV
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  #39  
Old 11.06.2021, 15:12
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Re: Job Application Rejected

I always write mine in Wingdings.

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It would be - if it was done well, using the right tools and without taking material without consent.

As for Calibri - picking a default font is indicative of having default ideas and standards. It tells me you will say things like "who cares about what it looks like, you get the idea, right?". It was created in a hurry for lower quality computer screens than we have now and is definitely the wrong choice for something that is printed on paper.

It's clunky and the kerning hurts my eyes. The rounded edges speak of wearing a "fun" tie to tell people you're a fun guy. It's the beige of fonts, the all inclusive package deal to Tenerife (English food served) of typography, the off the rack polyester suit of written correspondence.
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Old 11.06.2021, 15:17
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Re: Job Application Rejected

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If I were hiring, I'd be more interested in someone who already lives here. I wouldn't want to feel extra bad if it didn't work out and they didn't make it through the probationary period.
Even worse is I had a boss who insisted on face-to-face for first interviews. We had a couple come in at great expense to them from e.g. UK, Kiel - only to find out they couldn't even answer the most basic of technical questions, clearly one or two "Welforded" CVs.

I insisted in the end that first interviews should be by telephone.
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