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  #41  
Old 18.06.2021, 15:44
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Re: Sacked as an Expat....now what?

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I wouldn't wait until the last minute. I would do it in December already. That will ensure all the paperwork is in place so that he can start getting money immediately it is due, rather than mucking around with the paperwork later.

Also, OP must make sure that he has started looking for another job immediately he knew he was being terminated and keep all the necessary back up.
I thought it might be worth pointing out this as well. AFAIK you have to register with RAV as soon as you receive notice to be eligible for relevant benefits. Naturally, this means meeting the agreed number of applicatons from day one.
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  #42  
Old 18.06.2021, 16:14
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Re: Sacked as an Expat....now what?

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Did they offer you any severance, or just the gardening leave?
Just gardening leave which in hindsight feels a little "low"... I mean 6 years in CH... more than 15 years elsewhere for the group... A lump sum on top would have helped sweeten the end of the relationship but nope, wasn't offered. I was basically showed the termination statement and anything else we then talked about e.g. can I get extra support etc was either verbally declined or fudged. When I asked if I could challenge the decision I was told "well you could hire your own legal council of course, but this has gone through our legal team"...They even had a lawyer in attendance even though the discussion was with HR
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  #43  
Old 18.06.2021, 17:10
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Re: Sacked as an Expat....now what?

(Direct messages aren't working right now - not sure why. Could your mailbox be full?)
------

Let us support you. We are nothing without the company of others. Life is so much better when we stick together, I believe. Please keep posting.

When we're in the midst of the storm, it's hard to get anything done, and easy to devote large pools of time to self-criticism. We get in our own way a lot, I think. That's why I advocate cleaning, clearing-out and moving our bodies so much. They have a physical and spiritual effect, I find.

I know lots of people in life who've lost jobs, or who've been miserable in their jobs. Both people I am friendly with, and people I know through volunteering.

I know of people who seized the opportunity to retrain into something else (a trade that'll always be in demand), because they were sick of the uncertainty in their old office professions. I know of people who started their own businesses.

It can feel like the end of the world, but more people experience it than we'd ever realise. It tends to be shrouded in shame, something unspoken... It's tragic to imagine how many people have buried their pain deeply, feeling they can never speak of it.

Open wounds can cause us to lash out at innocent people, so I am proud of you for talking about what happened. Bottling things inside is toxic for us. If tears come, let them fall, but please force yourself to acknowledge that some hard days are just that, and each coming "tomorrow" could be beautiful.

Of all the times of year for this to happen, this is the best, because it's so easy to draw stregth from the sunshine and warmth on our bones, and possible to spend as much time outside as we please.

Look into the faces of strangers you pass, and smile when you can. Many people are carrying a burden that's weighing them down, and a smile from a kind face may be the only highlight in a tough day, made all the more difficult by half our faces being covered. Let your eyes convey the sincerity.

Please try to do your best to believe this is a mere blip, and that you're going to be fine. Try to remain optimistic about the future. You've every reason to believe a lovely life lies ahead.

Please take care of your mental health. It's easy to ignore, until we're forced to acknowledge it through a crisis. Have some fun finding out what helps you, and do lots of that.

Don't allow yourself to give up on you, because you are far more than this unfortunate moment, and it may soften your heart in a very endearing way, that brings you closer to others, because you've now felt a pain you hadn't felt before, that many others can relate to.

We are not our worst moments, just as we're not our best moments either. We're all just somewhere in the middle. When your mind tries to define you by this, please keep that in mind.
---
Whether you'd argued the agreement, or not, there's a loss. There's no way to win. Each termination agreement situation I know of where there was back-and-forth and negotiations took something away from the person affected, that they will never get back. There was no glory. It was gritty and painful, and required strict boundaries around when to look at the latest agreement, and when to stay far away from it, in order to just cope til it was over with.


There was calm beyond the storm for them, as there will be for you, too. All the best, and enjoy the beautiful weekend ahead.
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  #44  
Old 18.06.2021, 17:17
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Re: Sacked as an Expat....now what?

Pretty sure that if you want to claim unemployment you don't need to start looking for work until the first day of your notice period but I could be wrong. e.g. 6 months garden leave containing 2 months notice period you can have 4 months free of any obligation. You also absolutely don't need to register until the first day of actual unemployment.

There's no statutory obligation to pay severance but if the company has set a precedent or gives severance to others you might have a claim. FWIW the last company I worked for gave half a month's pay for each year of service.

Looks to me that you've been treated fairly with regards to the termination.
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  #45  
Old 19.06.2021, 07:15
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Re: Sacked as an Expat....now what?

The 6 months garden leave - is it you notice or is you notice 3 months and they added 3 months of top?

Please check about the holidays, you continue to accumulate during notice period.

As for the bonus - sounds like an ok deal even though it's their choice not to make you work so I see some wiggle room here and depending on amounts in question, you may want to look into it.
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  #46  
Old 19.06.2021, 09:02
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Re: Sacked as an Expat....now what?

I want to give a huge thanks to everyone who has replied to this thread so far. This has been a really tough week but here I will summarise what I have learnt based on the feedback plus some additional verifications, just in case it helps someone else.

It may not be 100% accurate as I'm keeping this a summary... this process is really complicated!!! Obviously it's specific to my circumstances/decisions:

Priority Questions:
1. Can I still be paid if I relocate back to the UK during this "garden leave" period?
Not officially, I need to be resident in Switzerland (TBC). Some say "available to return to work at short notice" but my employer said they do not expect me to be available and "dispense with my services".
Technically I could go anywhere but for tax, insurance etc I need to keep my residency to get paid.
- tip: Ask ex-employer for severance lump sum rather than monthly payment if you want to leave Switzerland quickly, be registered in low tax canton in this case! Doesn't apply to me (lump sum not low tax)

2. Can I keep my Swiss bank account open if I am no longer living in Switzerland, bank with PostFinance and Neon? I'd need it for salary, flat bills etc for now.
Mixed answers depending on your bank. Most say "no".
For me, PostFinance stated ".. in order to save on fees, it is generally not possible for our customers domiciled abroad to benefit from products outside the limited range of services. Please note that for customers residing abroad, the CHF 25 fee per payment transaction account remains unchanged regardless of your choice of banking package."
I will keep my PF and Neon accounts here and just see what happens! My guess is when I deregister the banks will be informed but it may give me some time whilst they catch up on that.

3. Can I get a "PO box" here if needed or redirect all post to a UK address somehow? I have no friends addresses here I can use ...
Yes via PostFinance, costs CHF. 240/year (link) Better for me in the end is a redirection service for CHF 90 for 12 months (link)

4. As I am over 55 can I get the pension paid out as a lump sum into a bank account so I can transfer to UK pension? It's a company pension and I want nothing more to do with my ex-employer
This was a surprise to me, lots of opinions... but I have decided to move everything out of my ex-employers pension company. I will move it to a "vested benefits" account either with VIAC (link) who seem to give good investment via index linked funds or valuepension (link) which is domiciled in Schwyz meaning the withholding taxes for leaving Switzerland and withdrawing their vested benefits account will be lower with valuepension than with VIAC.
As I understand it, the pension is in two parts, one I can transfer to the UK once I am living there and derigistered as a Swiss resident; the other part I can get at retirement age (60 if I retire early).


General Questions:
5. Can I keep my residency permit after the end of the "gardening leave", isn't there some rule about being abroad is ok for up to 90 days? If I keep it maybe I can find another job whilst still technically resident or maybe it will help to find another job in Europe ( BREXIT probably means not)
I am unsure about this. On a B permit I can sign on with RAV and if I meet certain conditions I would get "unemployment benefit" whilst job hunting. I haven't decided what to do yet for sure... General advice seems to be to register with RAV as soon as possible but I am delaying a bit, I may leave it for a month or so to allow myself a break. Contentious!
6. Any advice on when I need to contact the canton authorities about a. moving to UK, or b. being unemployed?
If moving cantons do as soon as you have any details. I will get out of my flat in September as it's expensive with difficult "get out" clauses. I plan to move to "long-term stay" apartment in a different canton which is cheaper and much easier to leave (an AirBnB). But with each canton having different tax this needs some thought...
My current letting agent informs my canton, I then need to register within 8 days of moving into new address/canton.
If leaving Switzerland I need to deregister in person, I think up to 30 day before leaving.

7. Any guidance on relocation/removal service prices? I did see other posts but they were from 2010, and now we are in corona times. I did contact EF recommended Luker Bros but no answer .... Anyone recommend a good removal company? Small 2 bed flat, not masses of gear, one way to south of England.
Very little info on this. An online search threw up "man with a van" for £1639/15m3 up to 900kg. It will be more than this as it's just 1 guy but I need someone with boxes and who can do all the lifting both ends ... I am guessing as a guide to double to maybe £3k

My current flat has been a big factor in all this, I can leave it in September or March 2022. With no additional support from my ex-employer I have to "play it safe" to keep getting my garden leave salary to end December hence remaining resident in Switzerland but renting a short term stay.
Pension actually seemed an easy part!!!!

It's all exhausting and I haven't written anything about the emotional side. Letting go of all those dreams, future family plans, the buzz of living in Switzerland even after >5 < 10 years. But I found it hard to make any friends here and at 55 think I need to be closer to family (based in UK) and have a life that focuses on people rather than work and money.

My time here has been financially rewarding but socially limited. I am still not 100% decided but 90% sure I will go back to the UK after gardening leave ends, or January (I can get RAV here for 1 month then relocate back to UK and get another 3 months...

It's been one hell of a week and the process has only just begun.... keep the advice coming... x
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  #47  
Old 19.06.2021, 09:51
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Re: Sacked as an Expat....now what?

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4. As I am over 55 can I get the pension paid out as a lump sum into a bank account so I can transfer to UK pension?
I have decided to move everything out of my ex-employers pension company. I will move it to a "vested benefits" account either with VIAC (link) who seem to give good investment via index linked funds or valuepension (link) which is domiciled in Schwyz meaning the withholding taxes for leaving Switzerland and withdrawing their vested benefits account will be lower with valuepension than with VIAC.
As I understand it, the pension is in two parts, one I can transfer to the UK once I am living there and derigistered as a Swiss resident; the other part I can get at retirement age (60 if I retire early).
Seems I may have been a bit hasty here. If I am moving to a non-EU/EFTA member state then "withdrawal of the entire portable benefits in cash is possible" quoted from my "leaving pension fund information sheet"...

Apparently to do that I need confirmation of marital status (why???) which must be official and current. This apparently may appear on official confirmation of leaving Switzerland. This seems a bit catch-22. I need to inform the current ex-employer pension company about what I want to do at least 1 month before I leave Switzerland or employment ends (31st Dec) but I need confirmation I am leaving to be able to apply for a cash payment.

I need to look into this more but I think I will transfer all the a vested benefits account with e.g. valuepension and then worry about cash payouts after moving to the UK. Note valuepayments charge CHF 500 for that transfer!

Hmmmm
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  #48  
Old 19.06.2021, 10:23
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Re: Sacked as an Expat....now what?

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I wouldn't wait until the last minute. I would do it in December already. That will ensure all the paperwork is in place so that he can start getting money immediately it is due, rather than mucking around with the paperwork later.

Also, OP must make sure that he has started looking for another job immediately he knew he was being terminated and keep all the necessary back up.
They must have changed some rules, sorry I remember a leaflet from RAV Zürich stating to register on the first unemployment day (but I visited them during the last 3 months of my ixed-term contract, although I do not remember signing anything, maybe I did? it can be)
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  #49  
Old 19.06.2021, 10:37
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Re: Sacked as an Expat....now what?

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They must have changed some rules, sorry I remember a leaflet from RAV Zürich stating to register on the first unemployment day (but I visited them during the last 3 months of my ixed-term contract, although I do not remember signing anything, maybe I did? it can be)
I think the latest day to register is the first day of unemployment assuming you want to start the unemployment clock then. Delaying will likely reduce the insured salary so not recommended.
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Old 19.06.2021, 11:37
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Re: Sacked as an Expat....now what?

Just a note about the bank account, I have never lived in Switzerland (or had a Swiss postal address), but as a frontalier, I opened an account for my salary to be paid into 25 years ago. Now that I no longer work in Switzerland, my account is still open to receive my AVS and company pension. All tax authorities are aware of it and I have never had a problem keeping it.

Maybe this is a special case, but folk can keep Swiss bank accounts without living there.
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Old 19.06.2021, 12:10
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Re: Sacked as an Expat....now what?

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Seems I may have been a bit hasty here. If I am moving to a non-EU/EFTA member state then "withdrawal of the entire portable benefits in cash is possible" quoted from my "leaving pension fund information sheet"...

Apparently to do that I need confirmation of marital status (why???) which must be official and current. This apparently may appear on official confirmation of leaving Switzerland. This seems a bit catch-22. I need to inform the current ex-employer pension company about what I want to do at least 1 month before I leave Switzerland or employment ends (31st Dec) but I need confirmation I am leaving to be able to apply for a cash payment.

I need to look into this more but I think I will transfer all the a vested benefits account with e.g. valuepension and then worry about cash payouts after moving to the UK. Note valuepayments charge CHF 500 for that transfer!

Hmmmm
My bold; because on reaching retirement age your spouse (if you have/had one) is entitled to claim a pension in her/his own right based on your contributions.

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Just a note about the bank account, I have never lived in Switzerland (or had a Swiss postal address), but as a frontalier, I opened an account for my salary to be paid into 25 years ago. Now that I no longer work in Switzerland, my account is still open to receive my AVS and company pension. All tax authorities are aware of it and I have never had a problem keeping it.

Maybe this is a special case, but folk can keep Swiss bank accounts without living there.
Same situation here, I seem to recall there's a general rule about living in a country with a shared border with Switzerland?

However, OH asked our bank (Ex-Credit Agricôle Suisse, now NEXT) about what happens if we move back to the UK as the pensions are paid into it and we would be back regularly visiting family..... they said that it was perfectly possible to keep the current account in those circumstances as it was already established, we just need to keep them up-to-date with addresses.
I'm not sure how that will affect the bank charges though, almost certainly not for the better!
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Old 19.06.2021, 12:28
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Re: Sacked as an Expat....now what?

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Apparently to do that I need confirmation of marital status (why???) which must be official and current. This apparently may appear on official confirmation of leaving Switzerland. This seems a bit catch-22. I need to inform the current ex-employer pens
Because your spouse (if you have one) is also a beneficiary of your pension. When you ask for the payout, your spouse (again, if you have one) will be asked to countersign.
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  #53  
Old 19.06.2021, 13:20
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Re: Sacked as an Expat....now what?

I heard from someone working at 1 of the big-name banks recently, that the amount of money in the account influences how receptive they are to letting someone keep it open, too, mindful they make use of our money (it isn't just sitting there gathering dust).


I think I recall them saying they charge around 30 CHF per month for people they deem to have enough money at stake to keep their accounts open from afar.
------------------

Some tedious things to work on, when you feel ready:
-Update your CV

-Create some generic job application letter templates, that you can use time and time again with minor changes
-Agree the character reference with the company you're leaving (this has been pretty painful for those I know, as they were asked to draft it, then the company removed parts, which caused hurt, albeit they could live with the compromise)
-----------------

I think it's really savvy to move out of your flat, and into a flat with more flexibility. That seems really smart to me, especially as it will entail having a big sort-out, which always helps mentally. Well done.


I think you're fine to register with RAV latest on your last day of employment (and beforehand, too, should you wish), but you could easily check this by going by "now" and asking what's what. You can ask generically, without mentioning your situation, or identifying youself. They also have email contact details from what I can see, and you could ask using a generic mail address, if you're concerned about giving your name and personal details.



"I'd like to check something, just so I am informed, if that's ok. If a company decides to end someone's employment and there's a period of garden leave, have I understood correctly that they should register with RAV during the last week of their garden leave?"


Hold tight about moving and moving your personal effects. No doubt lots will change over the coming months with the corona situation, once we see how Summer holidays pan-out, and once people start en masse defying mask guidance because of the heat etc.
-----------------

You may find this book interesting:
When Things Fall Apart by Pema Chödrön



"“Sometimes we meet someone who seems to have a great sense of wellbeing, and we wonder how that person got that way. We would like to be that way. That wellbeing is often a result of having been brave enough to be fully alive and awake to every moment of life, including all the lack of cheer, all the dark times, all the times when the clouds cover the sun.”


“… we have a lot of opinions, and we tend to take them as truth. But actually they aren’t the truth. They are just our opinions. We have a lot of emotional backup for these opinions. They are often judgemental or critical… Opinions are opinions, nothing more or less.”


"The healing comes from letting there be room for all of this to happen: room for grief, for relief, for misery, for joy."
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  #54  
Old 19.06.2021, 13:31
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Re: Sacked as an Expat....now what?

If you are around 55 years old and RAV eligible, depending on years of work prior retrenchment, you can get up to 520 days paid or even slightly more due to COViD extraordinary situation on the job market (up to 66 days extra).

If I were you I would take RAV and work throughout remaining days until early pension of 58 years old. Be it few month contracts or short job assignments, as long as it contributes to your AHV and 2nd Pillar. If for some reasons your situation drastically changed on better later, then you could try to work towards the statutory retirement age.
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Old 19.06.2021, 14:13
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Re: Sacked as an Expat....now what?

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If you are around 55 years old and RAV eligible, depending on years of work prior retrenchment, you can get up to 520 days paid or even slightly more due to COViD extraordinary situation on the job market (up to 66 days extra).

If I were you I would take RAV and work throughout remaining days until early pension of 58 years old. Be it few month contracts or short job assignments, as long as it contributes to your AHV and 2nd Pillar. If for some reasons your situation drastically changed on better later, then you could try to work towards the statutory retirement age.
Just already now start calculating what you have financially, if you retire at 58. it is still a lot of years till you get OAP money!

If you can bridge that until then, happy retirement 😀

Currently looking into stopping early, especially looking at what funds should be released when as this has a tax impact.
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