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  #21  
Old 18.06.2021, 20:30
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Re: Internal promotion from PM to director, what % salary increase?

Sorry for the bad news, but I've nerver seen 25-30% salary increase. standard is 10%, very special reasons max 20%. BTW, 10 people and 1Mio budget doesn't fit together until it is outsourced resources. Move to the Dr. role and look for an outside job if you want more.
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  #22  
Old 18.06.2021, 21:04
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Re: Internal promotion from PM to director, what % salary increase?

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Congratulations on the promotion! I don’t wish to sound cynical but to me the bolded sections appear somewhat incongruous.

In any case, aim high.
In what way do they seem incongruous?
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  #23  
Old 18.06.2021, 21:12
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Re: Internal promotion from PM to director, what % salary increase?

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Sorry for the bad news, but I've nerver seen 25-30% salary increase. standard is 10%, very special reasons max 20%. BTW, 10 people and 1Mio budget doesn't fit together until it is outsourced resources. Move to the Dr. role and look for an outside job if you want more.
If that is the market value you should not accept less, but don t be greedy.
I would be very honest and very transparently say I checked XYZ and this is the value it has. Take the higher end (30%) more so that when they ask for discount you can lower a bit, eg accept a 20-25% increase. These increases are not rare when you switch companies, if they hire outside they will pay that anyway, or get somebody underselling himself (there is usually a reason for that).

If they offer you a 10-15% increase only that is 15-20% below market value. Don t accept that, unless your plan is to stay 1-1,5 Y to move with the director title to a fair pay company.

Working on a director level for less of 150 K a year in CH (were is the job, Zurich?) does not seem reasonable to me, except if it is a start up or you don t need/have university title.
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  #24  
Old 18.06.2021, 21:20
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Re: Internal promotion from PM to director, what % salary increase?

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Congratulations on the promotion! I don’t wish to sound cynical but to me the bolded sections appear somewhat incongruous.

In any case, aim high.
Not really if that are only operating expenses (the team of 10 excluded). If you have in house specialists (OP said so, so count eg 1 graphic designer, 1 tech writer, assisstant, comm manager and the OP, there are 5 MK managers to soend in analysis, VOC, branding etc what, 200 K each? That s enough depending on the branch. It is not unreasonable.
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  #25  
Old 18.06.2021, 21:29
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Re: Internal promotion from PM to director, what % salary increase?

Not based on my personal but heard experiences: I have an impression the only way you get such a raise is if you have other offers or if they at least know you can easily switch to a better paying job.

depends what type of 1m$ budget it really is. I guess it is not the total budget, would be too little. Also too much to be amount you can spend on a single item without asking anybody else.

Also some companies have different %bonuses for different levels so even without base salary going up your total compensation would go up because you'd get more bonus paid out...
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  #26  
Old 18.06.2021, 22:01
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Re: Internal promotion from PM to director, what % salary increase?

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In my experience, 25% would be a very big pay rise for an internal move, 10-15% is more realistic and even that is far from certain.
Yes
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25-30% very unlikely at this level for an internal promotion although not unheard o...
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If you are going from managing no one to managing 10 people, that is a big jump. Ask for the 25-30%. Worst thing they'll do is say no. They aren't going to immediately decide to look externally just because you put out a high number... Externally, for that kind of role, they're looking at the same numbers you found, but with the additional costs of recruiting and the additional unknown of a new person.

That said, have you asked them what their budget is?

ETA: Don't mention the percentage. They can do the math. Just tell them, that based on your understanding of the role and its responsibilities, along with your research, leads you to conclude that the appropriate compensation is in the range of 160k. Go high. You can come down, but you can't go up.
Nonsense, managing 10 people or 100 doesn't make a difference for companies. They don't care about employees.
@OP Don't aim high, aim at what you think the position is worth, not what you think that you're entitled to. Companies have a budget, if you aim too high, they immediately start to think that you're not happy. Don't end up sitting there, having that baffled "Expectation vs. reality" look on your face.

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I have no experience with Swiss companies only US companies.
They're the same, unless you work for a local small/medium-sized company.

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This 100%, managing 10 people is a jump and should be paid for
Nah.
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This, this and only this. The OP is making a significant jump in position and responsibility and a 25-30% (and sometimes more) salary increase is common for a big jump in grading like that. They are really trusting you for this position so in the likely worst case they will negotiate down until both sides are happy.
Ugh, then you really allowed yourself to be used and abused.
This isn't thumb wrestling with you second cousin, whom you secretly kissed during a family outing back in 96. The company has a figure of what they paid the last person and they have a budget for the role for OP. Since OP has never held such a position before, they can generally assume, that they will receive an increase but one that probably didn't match the previous director's salary. Hence, OP should take whatever they offer, whether good or bad, stick it out for a year and if not satisfied, re-neg.
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  #27  
Old 18.06.2021, 22:16
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Re: Internal promotion from PM to director, what % salary increase?

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Hi all, thanks for your kind advice. To answer a few questions:

- I have already been doing the job ad-interim for the last 6 months as my precedessor was on medical leave and eventually decided not to come back.

- it has already been decided that the role will go to me, and we are finalizing the details. The change in leadership has already been announced internally within the management team. I doubt they would backpedal on that based on my salary expectations, although of course you never know!

- unfortunately, they do know that the chances that I will turn down any offer they might give me and leave are really small, as I am already settled in the role. This won't work in my favour.

- the role is a Marketing Director role, leading a team of 10 managers, specialists, and coordinators.
Ask the predecessor what his pay was.
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  #28  
Old 19.06.2021, 08:28
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Re: Internal promotion from PM to director, what % salary increase?

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This isn't thumb wrestling with you second cousin, whom you secretly kissed during a family outing back in 96. The company has a figure of what they paid the last person and they have a budget for the role for OP. Since OP has never held such a position before, they can generally assume, that they will receive an increase but one that probably didn't match the previous director's salary. Hence, OP should take whatever they offer, whether good or bad, stick it out for a year and if not satisfied, re-neg.
Spoken like someone who doesn't know they are talking about, or who is so timid and meek in these situations that they just bow their head and keep quiet and let good opportunities pass them by. Yours is an irrational fear in this particular situation.

HR specifically asked for the OP's salary expectation, so they can ask for 25-30% or whatever figure they consider reasonable based on their research of industry standards, and then HR will either accept or adjust accordingly to their industry baseline metrics and internal salary bands; that's how it works when someone asks for your salary expectations. A 25-30% increase going from a VP to a Director position with a team of 10 people is very common in many larger companies. It's a big jump up the corporate ladder and in terms of overall responsibility.

Last edited by Chuff; 19.06.2021 at 08:48.
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  #29  
Old 19.06.2021, 20:28
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Re: Internal promotion from PM to director, what % salary increase?

Does the promotion to Director level at this company also mean you won’t get overtime compensated as TOIL in future? I would go on the company HR intranet and check the salary ranges for the grade and push for the highest within that grade. Pay rises are far an few between these days. You don’t turn up to work for love, do you?
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Old 19.06.2021, 20:59
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Re: Internal promotion from PM to director, what % salary increase?

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Does the promotion to Director level at this company also mean you won’t get overtime compensated as TOIL in future? I would go on the company HR intranet and check the salary ranges for the grade and push for the highest within that grade. Pay rises are far an few between these days. You don’t turn up to work for love, do you?
I didn‘t realise the OP was working for the local council. Generally private sector companies don‘t publish internal payscales on the intranet. Otherwise, I‘m sure the OP and HR wouldn‘t be insulting each other’s intelligence with this negotiation.
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  #31  
Old 19.06.2021, 21:05
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Re: Internal promotion from PM to director, what % salary increase?

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Generally private sector companies don‘t publish internal payscales on the intranet.
Some do.
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  #32  
Old 19.06.2021, 21:52
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Re: Internal promotion from PM to director, what % salary increase?

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Spoken like someone who doesn't know they are talking about, or who is so timid and meek in these situations that they just bow their head and keep quiet and let good opportunities pass them by. Yours is an irrational fear in this particular situation.

HR specifically asked for the OP's salary expectation, so they can ask for 25-30% or whatever figure they consider reasonable based on their research of industry standards, and then HR will either accept or adjust accordingly to their industry baseline metrics and internal salary bands; that's how it works when someone asks for your salary expectations. A 25-30% increase going from a VP to a Director position with a team of 10 people is very common in many larger companies. It's a big jump up the corporate ladder and in terms of overall responsibility.
Yes Chuff, your previous forum history clearly depicts your choice-making ability.
OP is also not shifting from VP to director, he/she is a project manager.

During the year of biting the bullet, OP will have the title and possibly acquire the skill-set and knowledge to re-neg or possibly be open to a competitor within the given industry.
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  #33  
Old 19.06.2021, 22:02
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Re: Internal promotion from PM to director, what % salary increase?

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Yes Chuff, your previous forum history clearly depicts your choice-making ability.
Uh-uh. Let me know how that crippling male insecurity works out for you.

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OP is also not shifting from VP to director, he/she is a project manager.

During the year of biting the bullet, OP will have the title and possibly acquire the skill-set and knowledge to re-neg or possibly be open to a competitor within the given industry.
A prominent PM is often of a similar level in a company to a VP position. In the end, your advice is bad and the OP's instincts were right. They clearly want them for the job and he or she has nothing to lose by giving them their well-researched expectations to start the negotiations with.
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  #34  
Old 19.06.2021, 22:17
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Re: Internal promotion from PM to director, what % salary increase?

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Uh-uh. Let me know how that crippling male insecurity works out for you.



A prominent PM is often of a similar level in a company to a VP position. In the end, your advice is bad and the OP's instincts were right. They clearly want them for the job and he or she has nothing to lose by giving them their well-researched expectations to start the negotiations with.
Nowhere is there talks of a VP and just because you say my advice is bad doesn't make you right. There were ample others who underlined that such an increase is unrealistic...but hey, you know better. Well, for a VP, that is.
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  #35  
Old 19.06.2021, 22:29
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Re: Internal promotion from PM to director, what % salary increase?

If I were the OP, I would also look at other benefits coming with the role, like allowances, pension contributions, difference in variable pay / bonus, as the salary is only one factor of your total remuneration.
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  #36  
Old 19.06.2021, 23:14
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Re: Internal promotion from PM to director, what % salary increase?

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Nowhere is there talks of a VP and just because you say my advice is bad doesn't make you right. There were ample others who underlined that such an increase is unrealistic...but hey, you know better. Well, for a VP, that is.
Of course I know better, that should at this point in the discussion be very obvious. I can only repeat, for the benefit of the OP, that:
  • VP positions (the equivalent grade of many prominent PM's that I am using as a reference, if that was not already painfully obvious) often have a salary range of 130-160k excluding bonus and benefits.
  • Director positions often have a salary range of 160-200k+ excluding bonus and benefits.
  • If HR proactively ask your salary expectations, and you give them one based on sensible research of industry standards in the same or similar positions, they will then adjust and assess accordingly and make you an offer. If they feel it is a bit high they will reduce it. There is NOTHING to lose or fear except in your own mind.

Anyone who works for large companies, especially those with financial relevance (banking and insurance etc) and is of a position where they have access to this kind of salary information should be able to confirm similar things.
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  #37  
Old 20.06.2021, 20:32
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Re: Internal promotion from PM to director, what % salary increase?

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Of course I know better, that should at this point in the discussion be very obvious. I can only repeat, for the benefit of the OP, that:
  • VP positions (the equivalent grade of many prominent PM's that I am using as a reference, if that was not already painfully obvious) often have a salary range of 130-160k excluding bonus and benefits.
  • Director positions often have a salary range of 160-200k+ excluding bonus and benefits.
  • If HR proactively ask your salary expectations, and you give them one based on sensible research of industry standards in the same or similar positions, they will then adjust and assess accordingly and make you an offer. If they feel it is a bit high they will reduce it. There is NOTHING to lose or fear except in your own mind.

Anyone who works for large companies, especially those with financial relevance (banking and insurance etc) and is of a position where they have access to this kind of salary information should be able to confirm similar things.
Your post is based on hypothetical unknowns...prominent PMs, financial relevance....then you threw in some director's salaries, which are below par and have nothing to do with OP, since they didn't reveal the industry (which they shouldn't).

And then you basically, paraphrased what I had said in my original post. Good thing you know better.
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  #38  
Old 20.06.2021, 20:34
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Re: Internal promotion from PM to director, what % salary increase?

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Your post is based on hypothetical unknowns...prominent PMs, financial relevance....then you threw in some director's salaries, which are below par and have nothing to do with OP, since they didn't reveal the industry (which they shouldn't).

And then you basically, paraphrased what I had said in my original post. Good thing you know better.
How does your post help the OP?
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Old 20.06.2021, 20:38
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Re: Internal promotion from PM to director, what % salary increase?

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How does your post help the OP?
How doesn't it help OP?
-Don't overshoot your salary expectation
-Get the job/title
-Gather relevant experience
-Re-assess after a year

Seems pretty clear to me.
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  #40  
Old 20.06.2021, 22:12
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Re: Internal promotion from PM to director, what % salary increase?

Some interesting advice on this forum. Having worked many jobs and recruited in the past (and in the process of looking for some people at the moment for my team). Here is my two cents, I come from the finance sector:

Pay rises are far and few between if you stick at one job. Don't this one up. This is a huge opportunity and you should not take it lightly.

In the job I am in they kept on asking me for my salary expectations, I kept on pushing back telling them to make me an offer and if I like it I'll take it. They did not particularly like that answer and pushed me back for a number. I ended up giving them a range of salary that I had researched with peers and similar job offers (similar to what you did), and simply told them show me what you value me at, and if you go to the low end of the range I will refuse the job. I think this is the best strategy, you did your research, you know the price for the job. If it's 160k ask for 170.

You are talking to HR, but likely it will go to the big bosses and they'll ask HR what they can work with. If HR's budget for you is 150, they'll come back at 150 and you will just say yes thank you. If it was 165, you might even get an uplift to what you were hoping for.

I never got upset with someone asking for too much. The only instance I saw someone getting upset about a candidate asking too much was with a little junior asking for way too much money, and my colleague found it upsetting so just stopped the process for the kid. Again - this is not you. You know your market value as you did the research so what you are doing is fair.

Remember one thing: they are not offering you something, because the point is: if you ask for less than they are willing to pay you they will have saved the company money... You are already doing the job, they won't all of a sudden take it away from you! I believe you have nothing to lose in asking for market value, adding a bit of buffer is understandable and everyone does that. If you only get 10% extra then so be it - it's a capitalistic society we are all free to make our own decisions and you can go somewhere else. Someone mentioned that if you ask too much they might worry that you will leave them and not respect you as much - I wish that guy worked for me - the perfect employee, scared of his own shadow. Around bonus season I would always drop hints that I was interviewing elsewhere, if you are a good employee (which you seem to be as they already promoted you) they will do whatever it takes to keep you. No downside in asking, only downside in being shy. That's what my American education has taught me.

EDIT: I've worked for two Swiss companies and three American companies
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