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-   -   RAV acting strangely, legal resources? (https://www.englishforum.ch/employment/305061-rav-acting-strangely-legal-resources.html)

st2lemans 20.07.2021 21:56

Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?
 
So what have they done strangely? :confused:

Tom

Mullhollander 20.07.2021 22:18

Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by airman (Post 3329721)
Hello everyone,

Generally speaking, for as generic of a situation as possible, what resources does a person in Switzerland have to legally understand what the RAV (or the insurance company behind them), is allowed to do or not do?


RAV/ ALV regulations are at this link (German):

https://www.arbeit.swiss/secoalv/en/...ig-praxis.html

Searching the internet will produce articles on RAV from Beobachter, SRF Kassensturz, K-Geld, Blick and other publications.

airman 20.07.2021 23:38

Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mullhollander (Post 3329772)
RAV/ ALV regulations are at this link (German):

https://www.arbeit.swiss/secoalv/en/...ig-praxis.html

Searching the internet will produce articles on RAV from Beobachter, SRF Kassensturz, K-Geld, Blick and other publications.


Thank you Mullhollander! This is more along the lines of the information I was looking for!


To answer other questions: No, legal insurance is not applicable to this situation as it occurred when no legal insurance was already present.



For clarity: The RAV is a government office that manages unemployed persons. They control / check if unemployed persons are meeting the "obligations" that the ALV (Arbeitslosenversicherung) / Unemployment-Insurance-Company have as a condition of being insured by them. In Switzerland, as I understand it, paying into the unemployment insurance (it's taken out of your pay every month) is compulsory, but I do not believe that an employee can choose which insurance company is responsible for insurance against unemployment situations. I believe this is either chosen by the employer or the Canton (State).


Generally:
RAV (Regionale Arbeitsvermittlungszentrum)= Controlling Govt. Agency (like police)

ALV (Arbeitslosen Versicherung) = Insurance company that actually does the insuring (like parlament / legislation of terms and conditions)

ALK (Arbeitslosenkasse) = They manage the payments and the amount of time left to be paid (like a bank).


My questions refer to what terms and conditions apply. The ALV (like parliament / legislators) likely defines these and the RAV enforces these (like police).


My basic question is, if I'm not happy with how the RAV (police) is enforcing the terms and conditions of the ALV (legislation) to whom can I turn for legal advice?


Does the Canton of Bern have a legal advice telephone number for this to give advice?


Does the insurance company have a legal advice telephone number for this? (For reference, most do in the US, but Switzerland is not the US).


Are there independent groups / agencies / etc. that offer advice? Like CAI (Citizens for the Appropriate use of Insurance) that is a group of like-minded individuals who want to help others know their rights in insurances cases.



Put another way, if you, personally were unhappy with how the RAV was handling something like, for example, they told you take a picture of yourself with the hiring manager and CEO of every company you apply for (ridiculous example, I know, but the point is that what the RAV is demanding seems unreasonable), to whom would you turn? Who could advise you that actually there is no legal requirement for you to take such photographs and the RAV actually cannot demand this of you.



The danger is, if you do NOT know your rights, the RAV (same applies to police) can tell you literally anything and you will have to comply or risk the consequences, if you are not informed and equipped to fight it, even if it is untrue or not applicable.



As another example, if the police gives me a 300 CHF ticket for driving 120 km/h in a 120 km/h zone because they claim 120 km/h is only meant for cars with a 3 Liter engine or greater, how can I know if this is legit? If I don't know or do not have a resource to advise me or at least the written law to reference, I will end up paying that 300 CHF even though it just goes into the policeman's back pocket because there are no such laws.



I truly appreciate the help you all have given me so far and look forward to further responses. Great group of people on this forum!

Landers 21.07.2021 00:48

Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?
 
In general you need to convince the RAV that you're fulfilling the expectation of actively looking for work. Very often you can write down any old nonsense. However, if they get suspicious they have a right to investigate and if some of your job-searching claims seem to be illegitimate they can ask for further proof. For example, if you said you had lunch with a hiring manager, they ask that manager and the manger says he's never met you, you're going to need to come up with some kind of evidence that you did meet them. A one off might be over-looked as an oddity but otherwise I suppose you could be seen to be trying to defraud the unemployment insurance.

If this is something like the case then I think it's about time the RAV paid more attention as there seems to be loads of people abusing the system.

doropfiz 21.07.2021 05:20

Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?
 
https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/1...4_2184_2184/de

Bundesgesetz
über die obligatorische Arbeitslosenversicherung
und die Insolvenzentschädigung
(Arbeitslosenversicherungsgesetz, AVIG)

This is the Swiss law on unemployment insurance. It is available in German, French and Italian. If you don't have enough command if one of those, it can help to do two machine translations, one with deepl and the other with google translate, and also to translate from each of the three languages into English.

doropfiz 21.07.2021 05:30

Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?
 
Here, for Bern, is the general info for unemployed people, setting out the steps and requirements:
https://www.weu.be.ch/de/start/theme...tnehmende.html

You might find some answers at "Das müssen Sie wissen".

st2lemans 21.07.2021 07:39

Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?
 
So in what way do you find they are acting strangely?

Anyway, hire a lawyer, but expect nothing.

Tom

Hausamsee 21.07.2021 08:20

Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Juliet31 (Post 3329601)
Basically they tell you what to do and you say: yes and Amen. That is the way it works.

So, as I said at the beginning it is difficult to give you good advice without knowing fully what the problem.

…don‘t generalise, your 2 month experience might not be the same as others!

It also depends on what level you are at in your vocation so saying `yes and Amen`in any case is ridiculous and I can`t imagine it will help to get you in a better place. You generally have to be open and work with them. We are not living in a dictatorship situation here in Switzerland so don‘t mislead.

Susie-Q 21.07.2021 09:01

Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by airman (Post 3329810)
Does the Canton of Bern have a legal advice telephone number for this to give advice?

Here you go:

https://www.justice.be.ch/justice/de...sberatung.html

doropfiz 21.07.2021 10:40

Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?
 
Here's what looks like a general - free! - advice centre in Bern (disclaimer: I found it only by googling and know nothing more about it)
https://www.triio.ch/angebot/beratun...dlichen-fragen

And here's a page explaining how the RAV works and - I presume, although I haven't read it all - some info about what is and isn't allowed:
https://www.arbeit.swiss/secoalv/en/...ternehmen.html (in English)
Please be aware that for all government matters in Switzerland, English translations are not binding, but are provided only as a courtesy and, as such, they are sometimes less comprehensive than the original Swiss language. I haven't checked whetheror not this is the case on this site.

In addition, the City of Bern has an Ombudsstelle: https://www.bern.ch/politik-und-verw...g/ombudsstelle, although I don't know whether this would also cover the RAV, but they would know if there is such a service.

Snoopy 21.07.2021 13:33

Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?
 
Maybe I have missed it, but has the OP actually given any concrete examples of what the RAV is actually supposed to be doing wrong (in their opinion)?

Landers 21.07.2021 13:53

Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Snoopy (Post 3329944)
Maybe I have missed it, but has the OP actually given any concrete examples of what the RAV is actually supposed to be doing wrong (in their opinion)?

No, his question was where to go for help. He doesn't want to share here.

Susie-Q 21.07.2021 14:07

Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Snoopy (Post 3329944)
Maybe I have missed it, but has the OP actually given any concrete examples of what the RAV is actually supposed to be doing wrong (in their opinion)?

OP insinuated one point, which does seem like a rather odd request from RAV, not sure if it is against any laws though:

"for example, they told you take a picture of yourself with the hiring manager and CEO of every company you apply for"

roegner 21.07.2021 14:12

Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Susie-Q (Post 3329960)
OP insinuated one point, which does seem like a rather odd request from RAV, not sure if it is against any laws though:

"for example, they told you take a picture of yourself with the hiring manager and CEO of every company you apply for"


Might that have been a misunderstanding if f.e. op does not speak the local language fluently? Geting access to the CEO will not be possible unless you apply for management positions, I´d think.

CliiniMuus 21.07.2021 14:12

Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Susie-Q (Post 3329960)
OP insinuated one point, which does seem like a rather odd request from RAV, not sure if it is against any laws though:

"for example, they told you take a picture of yourself with the hiring manager and CEO of every company you apply for"


He didn't insinuate that. He explained right afterwards that he was giving a ridiculous example, presumably in order to convey the sentiment he feels about the actual request he received, in the absence of detailing the actual request. I would say it's clear from his post that that is not the request he received, hence him including "ridiculous example".

fatmanfilms 21.07.2021 14:19

Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Susie-Q (Post 3329960)
OP insinuated one point, which does seem like a rather odd request from RAV, not sure if it is against any laws though:

"for example, they told you take a picture of yourself with the hiring manager and CEO of every company you apply for"

If you apply to a job in CH, they will usually immediately acknowledge the application in writing.
If you apply for an unsuitable job, they will also write a letter, thanking for your application & say unfortunately you did not get selected yet invite you to apply again next time. (They realise you need to have nice rejection letters & happily 'play the game')

CliiniMuus 21.07.2021 14:25

Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fatmanfilms (Post 3329966)
If you apply to a job in CH, they will usually immediately acknowledge the application in writing.
If you apply for an unsuitable job, they will also write a letter, thanking for your application & say unfortunately you did not get selected yet invite you to apply again next time. (They realise you need to have nice rejection letters & happily 'play the game')


In volunteering, we support people sending out many, many job applications (paper and electronic), and I can say with some certainty that a large majority of applications receive no response at all (not even an automated response).


That's also consistent with complaints I hear within companies, too, when people apply for roles internally. No response is the common outcome.


It's especially hard the first few times someone experiences this, having put their all into their applications.

fatmanfilms 21.07.2021 14:32

Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CliiniMuus (Post 3329968)
In volunteering, we support people sending out many, many job applications (paper and electronic), and I can say with some certainty that a large majority of applications receive no response at all (not even an automated response).


That's also consistent with complaints I hear within companies, too, when people apply for roles internally. No response is the common outcome.


It's especially hard the first few times someone experiences this, having put their all into their applications.

I must have been lucky, I collected in excess of 500 rejection letters / emails from Swiss companies, over a 90% success rate.

roegner 21.07.2021 14:42

Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?
 
So far I have always received an (automated) reply with "thank you for your application". Which should be ok as proof for the RAV?

LtSoftDrink 21.07.2021 14:54

Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fatmanfilms (Post 3329972)
I must have been lucky, I collected in excess of 500 rejection letters / emails from Swiss companies, over a 90% success rate.

You must have made a few slight mistakes. My "success" rate was well on 99.09473 % :D
If you follow the companies procedure, an official rejection within 3 weeks is a cert...:msnsick:


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