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  #61  
Old 22.07.2021, 17:08
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

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RAV is a process to assist unemployed people into work. its a formal, government backed process. When you are designing processes that will be used in public or business situations like this, you cannot have steps like "try and ask one of your friends" because if your person doesn't have any friends or family that can help and so RAV wont pay him, he will likely fall into serious financial trouble and possibly worse. If someone is unable to speak the language but cannot find a replacement then the government (or the public funding body) should provide a translator, as happens in other countries such as the UK.

Taking the approach of "well you should learn french or you cant have any money" is an absurd statement. If they can't speak french when they arrive at hospital accident and emergency would you similarly leave them to fend for themselves ?

RAV is a government service. its not a "only if you speak nicely" service. it has a duty to provide citizens who have paid into the scheme with their unemployment compensation while they look for work.
But it is YOUR job now to find another job, supported by RAV and paid for that by the ALK. You must show them your initiative and willingness to find that job. That is what your employer, RAV, expects from you
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  #62  
Old 22.07.2021, 17:31
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

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But it is YOUR job now to find another job, supported by RAV and paid for that by the ALK. You must show them your initiative and willingness to find that job. That is what your employer, RAV, expects from you
Fully agree. So you can set off on some french lessons perhaps as long as the RAV will provide them to show willingness. But you cannot leave people who cannot speak french (or german) to starve by not paying them because they don't speak the local language. Or at least if you do, this isn't the kind of social cohesion that is good in society.
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Old 22.07.2021, 17:33
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

You keep saying not paying. If they cut your days, they must have given you a reason?

And download Duolingo or whatever and start learning the language!
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  #64  
Old 22.07.2021, 17:46
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

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RAV is a process to assist unemployed people into work. its a formal, government backed process. When you are designing processes that will be used in public or business situations like this, you cannot have steps like "try and ask one of your friends" because if your person doesn't have any friends or family that can help and so RAV wont pay him, he will likely fall into serious financial trouble and possibly worse. If someone is unable to speak the language but cannot find a replacement then the government (or the public funding body) should provide a translator, as happens in other countries such as the UK.

Taking the approach of "well you should learn french or you cant have any money" is an absurd statement. If they can't speak french when they arrive at hospital accident and emergency would you similarly leave them to fend for themselves ?

RAV is a government service. its not a "only if you speak nicely" service. it has a duty to provide citizens who have paid into the scheme with their unemployment compensation while they look for work.
If youíre a Swiss citizen, itís quite likely you can communicate in one of the official languages. If youíre an ‹ber-Expat (Swiss citizen, grew up where ever, hasnít got a clue, blame the parents etc.) wave your passport and hope for the best.
If youíre an out of work legal resident (i.e. not a CH-citizen) w/o basic regional language comprehension, why should RAV or any other useless authority make life easier for you? AFAIK all employees pay the same ALV percentage, irrespective of nationality and language skills.
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Old 22.07.2021, 18:02
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

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If youíre a Swiss citizen, itís quite likely you can communicate in one of the official languages. If youíre an ‹ber-Expat (Swiss citizen, grew up where ever, hasnít got a clue, blame the parents etc.) wave your passport and hope for the best.
If youíre an out of work legal resident (i.e. not a CH-citizen) w/o basic regional language comprehension, why should RAV or any other useless authority make life easier for you? AFAIK all employees pay the same ALV percentage, irrespective of nationality and language skills.
Because if the RAV will not pay, then the individual will have no income. The point is being missed. There was a council, back in the UK, a few years ago that required people who wanted some kind of housing benefit to register on a site to be put in the queue for it. The point they managed spectacularly to miss was that a whole load of people who needed to get a house or accommodation desperately, didn't have internet access they were often homeless people. So by assuming "well for gods sake, its the 21st century they can ask a friend to borrow their computer for a bit" they put some very poor people into an even more desperate hardship, instead of catering for everyone.

If the RAV requires - legally - that you speak French or German to communicate with them otherwise they will not pay you then unless learning a local language also becomes a legal requirement (which it nearly is, with the new rules from a few years ago) and people must act accordingly.

Its not about laziness, or what you think people deserve or should have learned here. its a legal framework that sets out your compensation according to a set of rules.

And from a societal perspective, if you are talking to someone who may be in desperate need of their compensation in french so they can feed their children and they don't understand so you simply refuse to pay them until they have learned the language, no matter how "correct" this is considered in Switzerland, its a sign of selfishness in society that is sad. I will happily know my taxes are helping people who cannot help themselves, be it through translation or other services.
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  #66  
Old 22.07.2021, 18:37
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

Some voluntary org's have linguistic support available. Plenty of us help with writing official letters, when a person's proficiency is rusty, or they just feel overwhelmed, and need help structuring an official letter, and using appropriate language. We've even been known to accompany people in need to their appointments sometimes.



Some voluntary org's offer language classes for free, and there are loads of great online resources for language learning, should a person want to learn "now".



In my experience, people in desperate situations tend to take language learning so seriously, that they cannot wait for the weekly or monthly sessions - they are motivated and focused, and expect to have to learn other languages right out the gate. Asylum seekers study a local language whilst their applications are being processed, and they become independent quickly, in my experience, so long as they stay motivated and focused, and retain access to support materials.


Plenty of the builders I know have learnt 3 or 4 languages to an high level working on building sites day-in, day-out. Those I know who work in kitchens or are cleaners can exchange small talk in a variety of languages.



I'm sure it's a word used out of frustration, but there's no such thing as "can't", as it pertains to learning a language (assuming one is in good health, not destitute, and has access to books or an internet connection and computer of some sort). If a person was able to learn 1 language by repetition and with practice, they can learn others, too.


There's a linguistic load that's best shared amongst us all, in order that we can participate actively in the communities within which we live, set a good example of giving, and not just taking, and share in day-to-day conversations, not to mention help when others are in need. It isn't fair to expect everyone else to bend to our will linguistically forever. It's tedious to have to keep pausing celebratory or sad moments to translate, and it's selfish to ask someone to focus on us in such moments, because it detracts from their feelings, I would say.



I wouldn't feel comfortable travelling for a holiday, without having learnt enough of the local language/s to get help in an emergency, to exchange small talk in queues and shops, to pay for stuff... I wouldn't elect to move to a country with different languages, with a bad attitude about language learning, because that's obviously going to get me off on the wrong foot, and hamper my ability to get going independently as quickly as possible.


I've found people to largely bend over backwards with kindness and sincerity to help or to chat, so long as I show I'm making an effort with any languages I have a command of, and I myself show kindness and sincerity.



Since translations vary in quality, and governmental agencies want to convey things very precisely, I can understand why they'd be willing to informally convey the odd word or sentence in a different language, but not everything, and not all of the time. We could debate the rights and wrongs of this, but it seems to be the wrong hill to choose to die on to me.



Lastly, it's also 1 of life's greatest pleasures, I have found, to share languages. It helps us to communicate better with each other, and it's lovely to read messages, poetry and books in their original languages (there's less beauty in a translation). It's also a wonderful testimony to so many people's efforts and commitments, that so many do have a command of multiple languages.

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  #67  
Old 22.07.2021, 18:42
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

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If the RAV requires - legally - that you speak French or German to communicate with them.
Or Italian or Rumantsch, it depends where you live.

Tom
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Old 22.07.2021, 18:51
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

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Or Italian or Rumantsch, it depends where you live.

Tom
The RAV actually told me they would speak English rather than allow me to take my Swiss girlfriend who they felt was a nightmare as she knew the law better than them
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  #69  
Old 22.07.2021, 19:17
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

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Because if the RAV will not pay, then the individual will have no income. The point is being missed. There was a council, back in the UK, a few years ago that required people who wanted some kind of housing benefit to register on a site to be put in the queue for it. The point they managed spectacularly to miss was that a whole load of people who needed to get a house or accommodation desperately, didn't have internet access they were often homeless people. So by assuming "well for gods sake, its the 21st century they can ask a friend to borrow their computer for a bit" they put some very poor people into an even more desperate hardship, instead of catering for everyone.

If the RAV requires - legally - that you speak French or German to communicate with them otherwise they will not pay you then unless learning a local language also becomes a legal requirement (which it nearly is, with the new rules from a few years ago) and people must act accordingly.

Its not about laziness, or what you think people deserve or should have learned here. its a legal framework that sets out your compensation according to a set of rules.

And from a societal perspective, if you are talking to someone who may be in desperate need of their compensation in french so they can feed their children and they don't understand so you simply refuse to pay them until they have learned the language, no matter how "correct" this is considered in Switzerland, its a sign of selfishness in society that is sad. I will happily know my taxes are helping people who cannot help themselves, be it through translation or other services.
Common sense? Iíd gauge any interaction with local authorities would work to your own advantage if you understand whatís going on. If you canít handle it yourself, get help.
What you are happily prepared to see your taxes wasted upon is certainly your prerogative. Have you already prepared a list of govt. approved language services? Should your proposal include an ALV reduction for those fortunate enough to be able to fend for themselves, it might be a winner.
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Old 22.07.2021, 19:22
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

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The RAV actually told me they would speak English rather than allow me to take my Swiss girlfriend who they felt was a nightmare as she knew the law better than them
Apart from the RAV, quite a few people never really understood that my girlfriend was really nice either
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Old 22.07.2021, 19:55
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

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Apart from the RAV, quite a few people never really understood that my girlfriend was really nice either
She was a nightmare, however hot
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  #72  
Old 22.07.2021, 20:37
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

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This seems not to be logical:

I am unemployed and don't speak a local language fluently and being unemployed don't have any money. How do I afford a translator in this instance ? If I don't and cannot understand the RAV person, do I lose my benefits and therefore have no income ?

If the OP is resident in Ct. Schwyz, the "Kom-In" organization offers RAV translators without charge in many languages, including English:

http://www.kom-in.ch/schluesselpersonen/index.html
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Old 22.07.2021, 21:20
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

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Because if the RAV will not pay, then the individual will have no income.
And?

Their job is to get you out of the system, NOT to ensure that you have an income!

Tom
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Old 22.07.2021, 21:54
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

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Because if the RAV will not pay, then the individual will have no income. The point is being missed.
I've read your post and I think I can see where you are coming from - even though I don't happen to agree with your views about the free translators.

There are rules, in Switzerland, about what one has to have fulfilled, to qualify for each separate kind of government-regulated insurance or support.

For example, to claim unemployment insurance benefits, one must have worked and contributed for at least 12 months in the past 24 (or something like that). That's one of the rules that gives rise to a reasonable assumption that one has been in Switzerland for long enough that one could have made a decent start at learning the local language - or at least long enough to have found out about individuals who or organisations which would help in situations when an interpreter (even an informal one) were needed.

In fact, no-one need starve for possibly messing up their RAV applications because they didn't understand the language. Such an applicant will arrive at the RAV and be told that they need to organise their own language helper, and is likely then to turn to someone within their own language group, to ask what to do. Englishforum does that for many, in English, and there are groups which share info in a lot of other languages.

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And from a societal perspective, if you are talking to someone who may be in desperate need of their compensation in french so they can feed their children and they don't understand so you simply refuse to pay them until they have learned the language, no matter how "correct" this is considered in Switzerland, its a sign of selfishness in society that is sad. I will happily know my taxes are helping people who cannot help themselves, be it through translation or other services.
Even in the worst case of having no friends, no relatives, of not knowing how to find anyone who speaks one's own language, be that online or in a corner store, of having no internet skills and being illiterate... even such a person, in Switzerland, is not left without income. They may be fully entitled to RAV benefits, but unable to claim them (for these reasons). But they can then, if they have no more money to support themselves, go to the Sozialamt (social services) which has a certain obligation - unlike the RAV - to figure out what the person's problems are, and where to start to untangle them. The Sozialamt can and does pay out money (or food vouchers) to people who have no clue how to find their way out of the difficulties in which they find themselves. Life is by no means easy, and can even be rather desperate, at that low level of income, but one need not starve.

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There was a council, back in the UK, a few years ago that required people who wanted some kind of housing benefit to register on a site to be put in the queue for it. The point they managed spectacularly to miss was that a whole load of people who needed to get a house or accommodation desperately, didn't have internet access they were often homeless people. So by assuming "well for gods sake, its the 21st century they can ask a friend to borrow their computer for a bit" they put some very poor people into an even more desperate hardship, instead of catering for everyone.
With this part of your ire, I agree completely. I knew someone who worked where such a system was being introduced. One had to submit everything online or, if one had no access to a computer, no problem, just come by, and the person at the counter will help you scan your whole stack of supporting documentation at.... £5 per page! That person told me that, sadly, it seemed not to be a "point spectacularly missed", but rather a deliberately wicked strategy. By making the mere application impossible for the most desperate to make, at all, those poor people fell out of the system altogether. And, rather cynically, at the next review after implementing this system, that department was praised for having achieved a good step towards its goal of a healthier financial balance.

Last edited by doropfiz; 23.07.2021 at 14:56. Reason: typo
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  #75  
Old 22.07.2021, 22:18
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

ha, one thing which really annoyed me here was the fact that ORP (RAV in German) refused to communicate in German because German is not my mother tongue and besides we are in French speaking canton :-P Not that I speak much in German but at that time I was Null at French
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Old 22.07.2021, 23:54
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

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ha, one thing which really annoyed me here was the fact that ORP (RAV in German) refused to communicate in German because German is not my mother tongue and besides we are in French speaking canton :-P Not that I speak much in German but at that time I was Null at French
The issue is that the 4-languages thing applies to the federal level only, and even there most documents won't be translated to Rumantsh.

A Canton has one or two languages (3 for the Extrawurst Grisons) it deems endemic and thus offers communicating in. In that sense Italian, English and German are on the same level in Vaud. And even if a canton may define itself bilingual, many a commune (shouldn't apply to RAV as the execution is a cantonal thing) may deem itself monolingual. Call yourself lucky if the other is able to communicate in any language other than French in Vaud, likewise with other the languages in other cantons.
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Old 23.07.2021, 07:49
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

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I've read your post and I think I can see where you are coming from - even though I don't happen to agree with your views about the free translators.

There are rules, in Switzerland, about what one has to have fulfilled, to qualify for each separate kind of government-regulated insurance or support.

For example, to claim unemployment insurance benefits, one must have worked and contributed for at least 12 months in the past 24 (or something like that). That's one of the rules that gives rise to a reasonable assumption that one has been in Switzerland for long enough that one could have made a decent start at learning the local language - or at least long enough to have found out about individuals who or organisations which would help in situations when an interpreter (even an informal one) were needed.

In fact, no-one need starve for possibly messing up their RAV applications because they didn't understand the language. Such an applicant will arrive at the RAV and be told that they need to organise their own language helper, and is likely then to turn to someone within their own language group, to ask what to do. Englishforum does that for many, in English, and there are groups which share info in a lot of other languages.


Even in the worst case of having no friends, no relatives, of not knowing how to find anyone who speaks one's own language, be that online or in a corner store, of having no internet skills and being illiterate... even such a person, in Switzerland, is not left without income. They may be fully entitled to RAV benefits, but unable to claim them (for these reasons). But they can then, if they have not more money to support themselves, go to the Sozialamt (social services) which has a certain obligation - unlike the RAV - to figure out what the person's problems are, and where to start to untangle them. The Sozialamt can and does pay out money (or food vouchers) to people who have no clue how to find their way out of the difficulties in which they find themselves. Life is by no means easy, and can even be rather desperate, at that low level of income, but one need not starve.


With this part of your ire, I agree completely. I knew someone who worked where such a system was being introduced. One had to submit everything online or, if one had no access to a computer, no problem, just come by, and n the person at the counter will help you scan your whole stack of supporting documentation at.... £5 per page! That person told me that, sadly, it seemed not to be a "point spectacularly missed", but rather a deliberately wicked strategy. By making the mere application impossible for the most desperate to make, at all, those poor people fell out of the system altogether. And, rather cynically, at the next review after implementing this system, that department was praised for having achieved a good step towards its goal of a healthier financial balance.
This is a first-class response and I agree. So there is a safety net below RAV that will help people regardless of circumstance (or language ability) which is very good news.
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Old 23.07.2021, 08:37
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So there is a safety net below RAV that will help people regardless of circumstance (or language ability) which is very good news.
It is NOT regardless of circumstances.

If you have any assetsabove 4k or so (can't remember the exact amount), you get nothing until you have exhausted most of you assets.

Also, unless you are Swiss or have a C-permit, this will count against you for getting another permit.

Tom
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