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Old 20.07.2021, 13:28
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RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

Hi All,

I'm starting to get the feeling that the RAV (Unemployment office) is acting like a police officer that pulls one over for not having enough blinker fluid (I'm starting to smell bs from their side). I'm hearing things spoken verbally that then change 180 degrees to be the opposite when written, seeing delays in communication created to force deadlines to be missed, as well as seeing them try to find every possible excuse and tiny technicality to try an avoid meeting their responsibilities towards the insured. Normally for such situations one just gets a good lawyer but it seems that they're all on vacation now.

I also know that there are generally legal advisory services for insured persons to find out what the law says about what the insurance is doing and that this applies to unemployment insurance (ALV) as well, but I'm not sure who to contact. The Canton is Bern if that makes a difference.

So my question is this:
What legal options / resources are available to find out if the RAV is really allowed to do what they're attempting or if they're just claiming they can because the average insured person has no idea what they can and cannot do?

I'm thinking the government should have some kind of legal advice number to call and there might be some groups that offer assistance to others because they themselves had problems.

What legal or other resources are available to a person to make sure that the RAV is actually doing what they're allowed to do an nothing more?

Also, does filing a formal complaint help any, and if so, where does one do that / how does one do that?

Thanks!

P.S: If anyone is a lawyer and wants to advise, please PM me.
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Old 20.07.2021, 13:48
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

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Hi All,

I'm starting to get the feeling that the RAV (Unemployment office) is acting like a police officer that pulls one over for not having enough blinker fluid (I'm starting to smell bs from their side). I'm hearing things spoken verbally that then change 180 degrees to be the opposite when written, seeing delays in communication created to force deadlines to be missed, as well as seeing them try to find every possible excuse and tiny technicality to try an avoid meeting their responsibilities towards the insured. Normally for such situations one just gets a good lawyer but it seems that they're all on vacation now.

I also know that there are generally legal advisory services for insured persons to find out what the law says about what the insurance is doing and that this applies to unemployment insurance (ALV) as well, but I'm not sure who to contact. The Canton is Bern if that makes a difference.

So my question is this:
What legal options / resources are available to find out if the RAV is really allowed to do what they're attempting or if they're just claiming they can because the average insured person has no idea what they can and cannot do?

I'm thinking the government should have some kind of legal advice number to call and there might be some groups that offer assistance to others because they themselves had problems.

What legal or other resources are available to a person to make sure that the RAV is actually doing what they're allowed to do an nothing more?

Also, does filing a formal complaint help any, and if so, where does one do that / how does one do that?

Thanks!

P.S: If anyone is a lawyer and wants to advise, please PM me.
Your legal insurance?
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Old 20.07.2021, 13:58
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

We can't really advise you here as you haven't really given enough information.

Keep in mind that RAV is no fun and games and they will do everything they can to make sure you are out of their responsibility and are employed on another job.
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Old 20.07.2021, 14:22
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

It is very difficult to give any kind of advice without knowing the exact details of the situation. I was with RAV for a couple of months a few years back (also canton Berne)and they were always crystal clear.
Maybe with the Covid situation they are at their limit with dealing with everyone? What you need to know is, that RAV is very strict. Their main objective is to get you back into work as soon as possible. Basically they tell you what to do and you say: yes and Amen. That is the way it works.

So, as I said at the beginning it is difficult to give you good advice without knowing fully what the problem. With me they were always tough, but fair. Could it be, that you are just not getting your way?
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Old 20.07.2021, 14:25
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

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We can't really advise you here as you haven't really given enough information.

Keep in mind that RAV is no fun and games and they will do everything they can to make sure you are out of their responsibility and are employed on another job.
IMHO, he has to be more specific as to describe what really went wrong before any advice can be given. You cannot simply say that the whole system is wrong as usually it is fair and very transparent if you obey the rules. Of course, there could be individuals who do not make the cooperation easy but it can be solved depending on where really problem is. Given only the info above, it’s just another baseless general rant not bringing anything relevant into the whole discussion.
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Old 20.07.2021, 14:29
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

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IMHO, he has to be more specific as to describe what really went wrong before any advice can be given. You cannot simply say that the whole system is wrong as usually it is fair and very transparent if you obey the rules. Of course, there could be individuals who do not make the cooperation easy but it can be solved depending on where really problem is. Given only the info above, it’s just another baseless general rant not bringing anything relevant into the whole discussion.
Given the info in the OP's previous posts, they either want to keep receiving RAV abroad, or to pause the RAV in order to go abroad. Both of which the RAV would rightfully be strict about.
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Old 20.07.2021, 14:32
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

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Given the info in the OP's previous posts, they either want to keep receiving RAV abroad, or to pause the RAV in order to go abroad. Both of which the RAV would rightfully be strict about.
Exactly!!! Think of RAV as your employer and then ask yourself: am I being reasonable with my request?
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Old 20.07.2021, 14:52
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

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Given the info in the OP's previous posts, they either want to keep receiving RAV abroad, or to pause the RAV in order to go abroad. Both of which the RAV would rightfully be strict about.
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Exactly!!! Think of RAV as your employer and then ask yourself: am I being reasonable with my request?
The name of the game is to play by the rules and one should not try anything bizarre. Basically, like with any insurance company governed by their T&C’s.
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Old 20.07.2021, 14:56
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

Could you please give an example of something which was different to what they told you in person? Also, which language are you communicating with them in please?


No big deal, but I'm guessing this is just you expressing your frustration, as it's factually inaccurate:
"Normally for such situations one just gets a good lawyer but it seems that they're all on vacation now."


Through fear, through poverty, through being overwhelmed, through having no network, through drowning in existing problems, through having to weigh-up paying 1 bill or the other, plenty of people seeking social help never, ever access legal support, let alone a "good" solicitor.



It's why we have so many voluntary services set-up to try to catch some of those struggling with even the first steps, like filling-out the application form to ask for RAV support.
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Old 20.07.2021, 15:04
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

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Given the info in the OP's previous posts, they either want to keep receiving RAV abroad, or to pause the RAV in order to go abroad. Both of which the RAV would rightfully be strict about.
It is possible to receive RAV while abroad but, as you say, there are rules. Under the EURES initiative, you can leave CH for 3 months as long as you are still looking for work. And you're entitled to 4 weeks paid holiday per year. But if you travel abroad without telling the RAV then you're in for some difficult explaining if/when they find out.
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Old 20.07.2021, 15:16
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

Going by OP's posting history, this may answer the question.

In particular the start:
Quote:
Hello Felro!

A visit at the weekend is probably not a problem because you don't receive daily unemployment insurance benefits for the Saturdays and Sundays in the month anyway, because only five daily benefits are paid per week and the staff of the RAV and unemployment insurance funds don't work at the weekend and won't call on you for an appointment at the RAV at the weekend. Being back in Switzerland within 48 hours is not enough.

You must be ready to be in Switzerland the next day for an interview or for an appointment at the RAV if the RAV contacts you the day before. Otherwise you are not considered employable because you are not willing and able to take up a job offered at short notice, and employability is one of the legal requirements for daily unemployment insurance benefits.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
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Old 20.07.2021, 15:17
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

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It is possible to receive RAV while abroad but, as you say, there are rules. Under the EURES initiative, you can leave CH for 3 months as long as you are still looking for work. And you're entitled to 4 weeks paid holiday per year. But if you travel abroad without telling the RAV then you're in for some difficult explaining if/when they find out.
Understood, but from the OP's previous posts they need to take care of a family member, so I can see why the RAV is being seen as "difficult".
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Old 20.07.2021, 17:57
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

Did you apply for jobs as per your monthly quota? Did you file your efforts as per the existing deadlines? If yes, please specify the “communication issues” and “technicalities” you refer to.

Generally, don’t expect much support, many useful suggestions. Keep in mind, if you thought they were nice, you might be tempted to hang out a bit longer.
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Old 20.07.2021, 19:06
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

I have had to deal with RAV twice in the past two years. Both times they were efficient....it was the insurance that was more troublesome (and a huge amount of paperwork - they requested documents that had already been given, took many months to pay anything and were really hopeless to try to communicate with....



The rules, from what I experienced, are very clear, and assume it takes time to learn and adapt. That said, I am generally a good 'advocate' for myself - I push the boundaries somewhat and assert my intelligence and qualifications (In my home country I could take the job that they do and would be specifically qualified to do it).


How long have you been looking for work ? I was partially unemployed for about 4 months during the covid lockdown (bad timing!) and then another month between my previous and current job....



I do think they seemed tougher second time around...partially covid, partly I think they are basically burning out, and partly I think they may be under pressure to deliver fast...


The longer you are out of work, the harder you are to place.... If you have already been out of work for 3-6 months you are already transitioning from short-to-long-term unemployed....
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Old 20.07.2021, 19:36
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

Hello everyone,
Thank you for the comments.


Please don't try to read into the situation too much, especially not based on previous posts.


I'm just asking how the system works here, not ranting at all.



I'm trying to figure out where to turn for legal advice, but not expecting forum member to give legal advice.


Generally speaking, for as generic of a situation as possible, what resources does a person in Switzerland have to legally understand what the RAV (or the insurance company behind them), is allowed to do or not do?


If someone could point me in the right direction as to who to turn to, that would be wonderful. I don't want to rant here or bash the system or anything, just trying to understand the "rules of the game" and who the referee's are if I have questions about the rules.


Any help in this regard would be much appreciated.
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Old 20.07.2021, 20:00
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

There's no insurance company behind RAV. It's cantonal/federal run as far as I know.

The rules of the game are you start looking for a new job as soon as you know you're going to be unemployed, you register with RAV, they tell you how many jobs you need to apply for each month, may send you on something like a language course, etc, if they think it'll help your employment chances.

https://www.ch.ch/en/unemployment-ri...d-obligations/
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Old 20.07.2021, 20:36
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

RAV doesn't pay, ALK does.

RAV determines if you have the right to payments, ALK then pays you.

Tom
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Old 20.07.2021, 20:37
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

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There's no insurance company behind RAV. It's cantonal/federal run as far as I know.
Wrong.

ALK pays you, NOT RAV!

Tom
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Old 20.07.2021, 21:01
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

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Hello everyone,
Thank you for the comments.


Please don't try to read into the situation too much, especially not based on previous posts.


I'm just asking how the system works here, not ranting at all.



I'm trying to figure out where to turn for legal advice, but not expecting forum member to give legal advice.


Generally speaking, for as generic of a situation as possible, what resources does a person in Switzerland have to legally understand what the RAV (or the insurance company behind them), is allowed to do or not do?


If someone could point me in the right direction as to who to turn to, that would be wonderful. I don't want to rant here or bash the system or anything, just trying to understand the "rules of the game" and who the referee's are if I have questions about the rules.


Any help in this regard would be much appreciated.
Please don’t be afraid to ask for help or rant - but do you have legal insurance? Lawyers in these parts as in any part of the world are quite expensive. I believe there is help if people make under a certain income or are refugees - but otherwise it is a fortune.

Case in point - I needed help with a situation once before I learned about legal insurance and it cost me 7,000 CHF for not too much work. It was worth it, but I also learned to get legal insurance after that.

Otherwise there is free advice here from people who may be “experts” - you just have to share more. If you don’t want to, understood.
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Old 20.07.2021, 21:24
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Re: RAV acting strangely, legal resources?

I do hope the OP isn't referring to him/herself in the third person when he/she is talking to his/her RAV officer.

Last edited by litespeed; 20.07.2021 at 21:24. Reason: correcting gender correctness
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