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  #21  
Old 23.07.2021, 09:45
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Re: To where can I got with the negotiation of the Job Offer

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you can start and then wait for the offers from the other companies. if still within the probably period, you're free to quit/renegotiate with the offers in hand.
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About the chances I don't no, but actually I don't want that jobs so it doesn't matter to me.
Accept and start the job he really wants... and then try and later renegotiate after only a couple of months when he gets the other offers that he says he has no interest in? 'Interesting' advice.
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  #22  
Old 23.07.2021, 09:53
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Re: To where can I got with the negotiation of the Job Offer

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Iím not a specialist in tech, but my understanding in Switzerland is that only big tech pay big tech compensation, so if you want big tech money thatís where you have to work. In this context 17% less doesnít seem unreasonable.

You have not mentioned the industry or size of firm, but if it is of any decent size the benefits will be standardised for your level in the hierarchy. If there is a bonus (and it isnít banking) it will likely be to a formula. Thus, the only real negotiating room you have now is on a relocation package. Things that could potentially be included:
Flights
Temporary accommodation
Lump sum
Relocation agent
Language lessons
Tax filing assistance
Repatriation (if they end your employment without cause)
Thank you very much for the information.

There is any realistic/average number that can I say when I ask for the relocation package?
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  #23  
Old 23.07.2021, 10:19
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Re: To where can I got with the negotiation of the Job Offer

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Thank you very much for the information.

There is any realistic/average number that can I say when I ask for the relocation package?
Your location in your profile is Zurich and the job is also in Zurich....
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  #24  
Old 23.07.2021, 10:33
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Re: To where can I got with the negotiation of the Job Offer

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Your location in your profile is Zurich and the job is also in Zurich....
We are in a process of moving
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  #25  
Old 23.07.2021, 10:38
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Re: To where can I got with the negotiation of the Job Offer

EF really needs a separate section for Yuppie problems
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  #26  
Old 23.07.2021, 10:49
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Re: To where can I got with the negotiation of the Job Offer

Your relocation costs will be yours given I assume you declared your location to the company as Zurich?

Also Glassdoor could be total remuneration and you're looking at base salary.

If I was offering someone 150 and they came back with 180, I would not be happy. Did you set your expectations during the recruiting process? For example, I had a headhunter approach me and ensured the position was ITRO what might make me want to move. It is important to establish the salary expectations early.
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  #27  
Old 23.07.2021, 14:42
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Re: To where can I got with the negotiation of the Job Offer

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Sorry for that,
I was surprised that it was very bad how I phrased the issue of negotiation so I tried to rephrase everything.
I think you did ok. Not everyone here can understand or write English well themselves, including the person who accused you of having poor English.

It's up to you and part of your skill-set to be able to negotiate well. First rule: Don't ask - don't get. You can say something like you've had more experience now in the job market and believe you may have undersold yourself, is there anything they could do for you to make in more in line with other opportunites that you've seen. That's a bit passive though. On the other hand you don't want to be "it's gotta be 180k" or nothing, unless you're prepared to lose the job. It's a bit like poker - often the one with the biggest balls wins.
Pension is an area where there can be large differences. Relocation could be like 10k or something. Some places will also offer flat rate expenses if you're above a certain level.
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Old 23.07.2021, 15:00
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Re: To where can I got with the negotiation of the Job Offer

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Thank you very much for the information.

There is any realistic/average number that can I say when I ask for the relocation package?
The idea is to compensate the cost of the move, not to give you additional salary. So they might pay a lumpsum of 10-20 for a family (depending on household size, distance) or just cover the actual cost.

I really hope you are better with cloud than with commercial stuff.
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  #29  
Old 23.07.2021, 15:57
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Re: To where can I got with the negotiation of the Job Offer

At that salary mark the company may give something like 1 or 2 salaries as a lump sum to cover your relo costs. You mentioned you are already moving - I was confused if alone or with partner and if said partner has a job etc.
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  #30  
Old 23.07.2021, 18:32
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Re: To where can I got with the negotiation of the Job Offer

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Main points:

1. I want the first role
2. I want to keep the good relationships that company (HR/Hiring manager)
3. It is not possible to wait for the Big Tech's companies actual offers.
You've answered your own question; take the job.

Big money is usually to compensate for unpleasantness. If the job is the one you really really want, and your first in Zurich, for 150k I'd grab it with both hands.
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  #31  
Old 23.07.2021, 19:18
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Re: To where can I got with the negotiation of the Job Offer

Theoretically you can sign the contract now and when you get a better contract before you start that job, you can sign the better contract and forget about the first job:



https://www.ktipp.ch/artikel/artikel...ritt-moeglich/
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  #32  
Old 24.07.2021, 19:32
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Re: To where can I got with the negotiation of the Job Offer

Wow, I'm impressed how strong the lobby for "cheap foreign labor" is, all those whining when someone doesn't want to live on minimum wage

When I was convinced to come to Switzerland for 135k it wasn't for "oh wow, great opportunity from Switzerland", it was more about how persistent they were in approaching me. I googled around and saw so many such posts, threads with the attitude that 120k is the golden line. In reality, I'm not saying that 120k gives a bad life, but it's really mediocre for a position that requires up-to-date tech competence. I was made a fool of to say the least. My daily bread was to politely dance around less competent, senior employees This "little" problem made me feel sick after a few years, so finally, despite falling in love with the Alps, I decided to look around the world. Websites like levels.fyi and networking via slack opened my eyes. I decided to leave Switzerland, and then magically I didn't have to because my new employer had no problem if I stayed in Switzerland (or wherever I want, for that matter). Huh, I don't like to brag or give away too much private information, but hell, just so you have an idea, I make over 200k CHF and the atmosphere at work is really nice, no one checks every day what I do or how many hours I work, on the contrary, I get so much appreciation for my contribution that it's just amazing, like I moved from 3rd country to 1st country and all the people are just amazing/competent/humble.

Dear EF'ers, I understand that most of you are not IT engineers (also, sorry, excluding the narrowly competent ones like "I've been working with this system for X years, programming in Y language for Z years" ). High-tech IT requires you to devote some of your personal hours to learning something new every month. There is a question as to how large a percentage of the population can get through a technical education, but even more questionable is how large a percentage of the technical population can and wants to keep it up. So, I'm sorry, but if you don't have an IT background, nor do you do high-tech work (but you are on the management side, on the HR side, on the non-technical, non-IT side), then maybe 120k is the golden line for you. Salaries in the high-tech industry, and I'm not talking about "buzz words" here, but the ability to think and be on the cutting edge (continuous learning) are at the $500 level, well above CHF 200k. OP is talking about an Architect in IT position, yes it could mean the narrow-minded (but high ego) type or a really competent Architect...

OK, now you can roast me for ruining your vision
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  #33  
Old 24.07.2021, 19:59
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Re: To where can I got with the negotiation of the Job Offer

I think people have taken issue with CHF naming his price, the company have offered him his price, now CHF thinks heís sold himself short and wants more.

FWIW, 150k for a solution architect is not a low salary, pretty fair actually, however there is some headroom and a 180k base is (easily) achievable, for the right person, in the right company.
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  #34  
Old 24.07.2021, 20:13
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Re: To where can I got with the negotiation of the Job Offer

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Thank you very much for the information.

There is any realistic/average number that can I say when I ask for the relocation package?
My company pays 3 months fully furnished apartment, plus flat chf10k.
Both taxable.
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  #35  
Old 24.07.2021, 20:28
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Re: To where can I got with the negotiation of the Job Offer

Another thing for OP to consider - You don't mention where you're at now or your nationality. If you're non-EU then your employer has to go through a more detailed process in order to get you a permit. If you ask too much more than the next guy, they'll take the next guy.

That sort of applies to Swiss and EU as well, but even more so when there are stacks of non-EUs probably trying for the same job.
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  #36  
Old 26.07.2021, 10:37
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Re: To where can I got with the negotiation of the Job Offer

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Wow, I'm impressed how strong the lobby for "cheap foreign labor" is, all those whining when someone doesn't want to live on minimum wage
I'm not in your field, although I do work for a tech company.

My point was that the exact figure of a salary is only one factor to bear in mind when considering accepting a job offer - any job offer. Obviously the salary isn't too low for the OP because it's exactly what he asked for and presumably originally wanted and can live on quite happily. The other factors then come into play - is the job the one he wants? Is it in the location he wants?Are the other terms and conditions fair or unreasonably onerous? Is the working environment good? Does he like his prospective colleagues and manager? And so on.

A lot of people, I think, are also uncomfortable with him attempting to move the goal posts after terms are close to agreed. You wouldn't like it if an employer did it to you, after all, and it wouldn't really get the relationship off to a good start and could even sour the entire job as a result.
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  #37  
Old 26.07.2021, 10:50
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Re: To where can I got with the negotiation of the Job Offer

There is also the possibility to ask for a salary increase (or some bonus or perk) after 1 or 2 years, after both parties get to know each other and have seen how things are working out. If done politely and supported by performance it should not be badly received by the employer.
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  #38  
Old 26.07.2021, 11:06
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Re: To where can I got with the negotiation of the Job Offer

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Wow, I'm impressed how strong the lobby for "cheap foreign labor" is, all those whining when someone doesn't want to live on minimum wage

When I was convinced to come to Switzerland for 135k it wasn't for "oh wow, great opportunity from Switzerland", it was more about how persistent they were in approaching me. I googled around and saw so many such posts, threads with the attitude that 120k is the golden line. In reality, I'm not saying that 120k gives a bad life, but it's really mediocre for a position that requires up-to-date tech competence. I was made a fool of to say the least. My daily bread was to politely dance around less competent, senior employees This "little" problem made me feel sick after a few years, so finally, despite falling in love with the Alps, I decided to look around the world. Websites like levels.fyi and networking via slack opened my eyes. I decided to leave Switzerland, and then magically I didn't have to because my new employer had no problem if I stayed in Switzerland (or wherever I want, for that matter). Huh, I don't like to brag or give away too much private information, but hell, just so you have an idea, I make over 200k CHF and the atmosphere at work is really nice, no one checks every day what I do or how many hours I work, on the contrary, I get so much appreciation for my contribution that it's just amazing, like I moved from 3rd country to 1st country and all the people are just amazing/competent/humble.

Dear EF'ers, I understand that most of you are not IT engineers (also, sorry, excluding the narrowly competent ones like "I've been working with this system for X years, programming in Y language for Z years" ). High-tech IT requires you to devote some of your personal hours to learning something new every month. There is a question as to how large a percentage of the population can get through a technical education, but even more questionable is how large a percentage of the technical population can and wants to keep it up. So, I'm sorry, but if you don't have an IT background, nor do you do high-tech work (but you are on the management side, on the HR side, on the non-technical, non-IT side), then maybe 120k is the golden line for you. Salaries in the high-tech industry, and I'm not talking about "buzz words" here, but the ability to think and be on the cutting edge (continuous learning) are at the $500 level, well above CHF 200k. OP is talking about an Architect in IT position, yes it could mean the narrow-minded (but high ego) type or a really competent Architect...

OK, now you can roast me for ruining your vision
The lobby was for process. You ask 150 and then when you get it you ask more. This typically irks employers. That is all.
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  #39  
Old 01.08.2021, 12:38
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Re: To where can I got with the negotiation of the Job Offer

150K isn't that bad, but if you only have a small chance to get into Big Tech, go for it.
You might get the same base pay, but with the RSU that don't think you're gonna get with your current offer, you might make 30%-40% more with stocks since they start vesting in 1 year or so.
Furthermore, Big Techs have great ESPP and base pay percentage-based bonus too, which can easily be >=15% for 150K base.

In Switzerland/ Zurich, all sectors, including Banking & Insurance, are big losers compared to Big Tech, namely, Google, Microsoft and Amazon, with the latter aggressively hiring Solutions Architects these days.
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Old 01.08.2021, 15:46
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Re: To where can I got with the negotiation of the Job Offer

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The idea is to compensate the cost of the move, not to give you additional salary. So they might pay a lumpsum of 10-20 for a family (depending on household size, distance) or just cover the actual cost.

I really hope you are better with cloud than with commercial stuff.
With mine they paid for the move and temporary accommodation and still gave me 15k CHF.
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