Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Employment  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 19.08.2021, 23:12
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 6
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
HeyThere has no particular reputation at present
Contracting by the hour (but with social benefits)

I am discussing a "freelancing role" within the area of financial risk management. I have 5 years of work experience and I come from a EU country. I would need to move to Zurich for the job.

The first offer by the company is an hourly rate of CHF 80/hr or CHF 672/day and they expect the job to take a year. I was quite underwhelmed as this hourly rate is even lower than my rate of EUR 90/hr in my home country. Then, the company informed me that on top of this CHF 80/hr, the company will pay social benefits like pension contribution (5%), accident insurance, and paid sick leave. I'm not aware if there is an additional holiday entitlement of 10.64% on top of that hourly rate. Anyways, I told the company that the initial offer is too low, and they are preparing a higher offer.

This style doesn't sound like freelancing/contracting/self employed as in other countries. I wouldn't even be doing this job through an own legal entity.
I am wondering whether
- this type of "freelancing/contracting" is typically Swiss or that it is not freelancing/contracting at all.
- Could I negotiate for much more? Even if there are social benefits, I think the rate is not worth moving to Zurich.

What the company has described actually looks a lot as what is described in the below link
https://ethz.ch/content/dam/ethz/ass...wage_basis.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 19.08.2021, 23:16
Island Monkey's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Wallis
Posts: 6,709
Groaned at 118 Times in 82 Posts
Thanked 7,549 Times in 3,436 Posts
Island Monkey has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Monkey has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Monkey has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Monkey has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Monkey has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Monkey has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Contracting by the hour (but with social benefits)

I think to get permission to be self employed in Switzerland you need more than one client - so you might have to be treated as an employee.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 20.08.2021, 07:03
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 8,805
Groaned at 324 Times in 248 Posts
Thanked 20,238 Times in 7,058 Posts
k_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Contracting by the hour (but with social benefits)

There are three situations:
1. you have your own company and deal directly with the client: charge hourly/daily rate + VAT. You are then on the payroll of your own company
2. you work with an agency (that also eats a part of the rate): either you are on the agency's payroll or your company charges the rate + VAT to the agency, and you are on your own company's payroll
3. you're an hourly employee on the client's payroll - but this is not contracting or freelancing

Situation 1 is most preferred but requires commercial and sales skills.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank k_and_e for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 20.08.2021, 09:10
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 6
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
HeyThere has no particular reputation at present
Re: Contracting by the hour (but with social benefits)

Ok, thanks both of you! Laws for self-employed are then quite different in Switzerland. Any ideas on whether I should be able to negotiate a much higher hourly rate?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 20.08.2021, 09:49
NotAllThere's Avatar
Modulo 2
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 15,259
Groaned at 312 Times in 268 Posts
Thanked 23,687 Times in 9,633 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Contracting by the hour (but with social benefits)

Quote:
View Post
Ok, thanks both of you! Laws for self-employed are then quite different in Switzerland. Any ideas on whether I should be able to negotiate a much higher hourly rate?
You almost certainly will not be self-employed. You either work for the agency or the company. It's unusual via agency for them to pay social deductions on top. Usually it comes out of the 80 francs per hour, lowering your take home even more.

It's also unusual for a job to be offered at a net rate. It should be the gross rate. Mandatory deductions come off that - although the employer will also be making payments.

Are you working via an agency or directly for the company.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank NotAllThere for this useful post:
  #6  
Old 20.08.2021, 10:33
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 6
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
HeyThere has no particular reputation at present
Re: Contracting by the hour (but with social benefits)

Quote:
View Post
You almost certainly will not be self-employed. You either work for the agency or the company. It's unusual via agency for them to pay social deductions on top. Usually it comes out of the 80 francs per hour, lowering your take home even more.

It's also unusual for a job to be offered at a net rate. It should be the gross rate. Mandatory deductions come off that - although the employer will also be making payments.

Are you working via an agency or directly for the company.
I will be directly working for the company, but will be paid by the hour. Indeed, it is certainly not classified as self-employment, even though the company initially told me it is freelancing/contracting. Since the content of the job sounds interesting, I am still keen to negotiate for more.

Thanks for the info about what is usual.

The company will soon (maybe next week) come back with a higher offer, also detailing on paper what they pay on top in terms of social benefits. I will then find out whether 5% pension benefit and 10.64% holiday entitlement are to be added on top of the CHF 80/hr or they are already included. In both cases the CHF 80/hr sound very low for a specialised job in Zurich.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 20.08.2021, 10:35
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Work in ZH, live in SZ
Posts: 12,453
Groaned at 366 Times in 296 Posts
Thanked 23,902 Times in 8,648 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Contracting by the hour (but with social benefits)

Forget about the discussion on the system:
1. It's an absolute lowball offer
2. I smell a rat. Is it a "zero hour" contract or do you have a fixed amount of work per month?

This is not the way business is done in Switzerland at all and it sounds like somebody is trying to screw you over. Professional services in Zurich are typically a lot more expensive than the rate offered. Thats a permanent salary - not a bad one, but it is more than unusual to make this some sort of half baked contracting unless there is a good reason to do so.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 20.08.2021, 10:54
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 6
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
HeyThere has no particular reputation at present
Re: Contracting by the hour (but with social benefits)

Quote:
View Post
Forget about the discussion on the system:
1. It's an absolute lowball offer
2. I smell a rat. Is it a "zero hour" contract or do you have a fixed amount of work per month?

This is not the way business is done in Switzerland at all and it sounds like somebody is trying to screw you over. Professional services in Zurich are typically a lot more expensive than the rate offered. Thats a permanent salary - not a bad one, but it is more than unusual to make this some sort of half baked contracting unless there is a good reason to do so.
Hey thanks for the opinion! I have been reading your advices/replies to year old posts on this forum .

The company is actually one of the international Big Four companies in Consulting/Auditing and the final client (of this consulting firm) is one of the two Swiss banking giants. Indeed it sounds like an absolute lowball offer. However, I don't think they want to screw me over in terms of job security. They have told their expectations that the project will take over a year and that I would be working full time. Although initially advertising it is a freelancing/contracting position, during the interview they also told me they were willing to offer me a permanent position. Having experience with much higher payments with freelancing jobs in my home country, I stated myself I want them to offer me a "freelancing contract". Also, I do think it would be awesome to be in Switzerland for a year, but I do not want to commit yet to permanently move there. There is a lowball offer, but no intended false advertising of the "freelancing contract" I guess.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank HeyThere for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 20.08.2021, 11:06
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Work in ZH, live in SZ
Posts: 12,453
Groaned at 366 Times in 296 Posts
Thanked 23,902 Times in 8,648 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Contracting by the hour (but with social benefits)

I think we are just having a misunderstanding about the word "permanent" here then ;-) Even if it is a one year contract can you either freelance or be employed as a "normal" employee of the big four. Thats usually called "permanent", even if it is a contract with a limited time. So you would get a fixed salary, typically some sort of bonus, social insurances, paid vacation and so on...

As a permanent offer does it boil down to some 130k-ish gross salary. Sounds totally ok as a non-management role in a big four. And yes, its a great opportunity to experience Switzerland for a year.

There is no job security in Switzerland, they can fire permanent employees any time as they wish - so never accept less money for perceived security.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Treverus for this useful post:
  #10  
Old 20.08.2021, 11:25
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 6
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
HeyThere has no particular reputation at present
Re: Contracting by the hour (but with social benefits)

Haha, I am aware that the term "permanent" is an accepted misnomer. In most countries, that would be a one-year contract, that could be extended to a permanent position in 2 years.

As for the alternative for the permanent position, from the phone call I understood I would be graded in as 'managerial position'. I interpreted that as "Manager" although "Assistant Manager title" could also be a possible interpretation. Indeed, the initial hourly rate offer doesn't make much sense, when according to Glassdoor the average Big Four Manager and Assistant Manager in Zurich earns CHF 130k-150k and 110K respectively
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 20.08.2021, 11:35
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Work in ZH, live in SZ
Posts: 12,453
Groaned at 366 Times in 296 Posts
Thanked 23,902 Times in 8,648 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Contracting by the hour (but with social benefits)

Quote:
View Post
Haha, I am aware that the term "permanent" is an accepted misnomer. In most countries, that would be a one-year contract, that could be extended to a permanent position in 2 years.

As for the alternative for the permanent position, from the phone call I understood I would be graded in as 'managerial position'. I interpreted that as "Manager" although "Assistant Manager title" could also be a possible interpretation. Indeed, the initial hourly rate offer doesn't make much sense, when according to Glassdoor the average Big Four Manager and Assistant Manager in Zurich earns CHF 130k-150k and 110K respectively
No offense, but I meant manager as in "manages people" not as "manages the office supplies"... literally anyone in a big four has "manager" in the title.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 20.08.2021, 12:18
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 6
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
HeyThere has no particular reputation at present
Re: Contracting by the hour (but with social benefits)

No worries, I am aware of the inflated titles used within firms. The most funny thing is when someone says "I work in finance", but they are actually doing some invoicing work .
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 20.08.2021, 13:19
NotAllThere's Avatar
Modulo 2
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 15,259
Groaned at 312 Times in 268 Posts
Thanked 23,687 Times in 9,633 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Contracting by the hour (but with social benefits)

Fix term permanent contract, I guess.

I calculate on that 80 francs an hour, your take home would be about 58 francs.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Old-Age Pensioner struggling on Social Benefits - how to help? doropfiz Daily life 72 26.10.2018 18:22
Social benefits and employer liabilities jam_jim Employment 5 24.01.2017 23:00
American Expats Social Hour with Tax Talk & Voter Registration AboleynCH Commercial events 0 29.02.2016 01:08
Social welfare benefit ( EU citizen ) after unemployment benefits Sahasrara Permits/visas/government 27 16.08.2015 13:18
Social Benefits [for gap in employment] agc1991 Permits/visas/government 2 18.02.2014 17:39


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:37.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0