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  #21  
Old 09.09.2021, 22:05
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Re: Equivalent salary 90k Munich to Zurich?

For Google, check levels.fyi
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  #22  
Old 09.09.2021, 22:15
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Re: Equivalent salary 90k Munich to Zurich?

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Sure. Because a PhD graduate is NOT your average software developer. How many CS students manage to make a PhD? 2% or so? Companies dont hire them for their experience, but for their potential. They are typically put in some sort of management fast track program. And they are not hired to churn out code.

The OP did not say that he has a PhD, he is not a software architect or mentioned anything else that would warrant a higher salary than 120k. If you have special skills or experience worth a lot to an employer: sure, negotiate a nice deal.
Really depends what you regard as top. For me top is 0.1 - 5% depending on the qualifications level you want. I agree OP atm does not sound like that.

Lots of non-PhD earn similar salaries as well. Not sure how many ETH students do a PhD but apparently ETH has 4100 PhD students out of a total 21000 students. Hence I guess more than 2%
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  #23  
Old 09.09.2021, 22:32
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Re: Equivalent salary 90k Munich to Zurich?

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Really depends what you regard as top. For me top is 0.1 - 5% depending on the qualifications level you want. I agree OP atm does not sound like that.

Lots of non-PhD earn similar salaries as well. Not sure how many ETH students do a PhD but apparently ETH has 4100 PhD students out of a total 21000 students. Hence I guess more than 2%
In IT university degrees dont count for a lot. Whether you look for the 90k salary or the 150k is a matter for your interview OP. But if you are someone with good skills that has practiced in a complex or enterprise environment dont undersell yourself. Most IT employees struggle with real understanding of their field so if you have a high level of skill you will always be in demand.
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  #24  
Old 09.09.2021, 22:46
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Re: Equivalent salary 90k Munich to Zurich?

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Lots of non-PhD earn similar salaries as well. Not sure how many ETH students do a PhD but apparently ETH has 4100 PhD students out of a total 21000 students. Hence I guess more than 2%
i don't know how it is today but when i was at eth many phd students were not eth alumnis but came from other universities.
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  #25  
Old 09.09.2021, 23:04
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Re: Equivalent salary 90k Munich to Zurich?

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i don't know how it is today but when i was at eth many phd students were not eth alumnis but came from other universities.
I don't know either but some professors do tend to pick them exclusively among master students (who did not necessarily do their undergrad at ETH, but know also some who did). So really depends on the group. I guess someone keeps track though

Also PhD salary at ETH even though good as compared to other countries is still lower than what a new graduate without a PhD would earn. For most people it probably does not make much financial sense (just guessing from salary and seniority level of people I know).

Some people with PhDs earn extra high salaries, but maybe they would have earned also without the PhD. I presume personality plays a role making people suitable for different tracks.
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  #26  
Old 11.09.2021, 08:17
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Re: Equivalent salary 90k Munich to Zurich?

140-150k sounds reasonable for senior software developer and fairly easy to get.
Plenty of companies in Zurich will pay that for decent dev.
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  #27  
Old 11.09.2021, 08:22
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Re: Equivalent salary 90k Munich to Zurich?

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Thanks for the discussion, very interesting!


I am in fact quite specialized, I don't hold a PhD but I worked mainly in R&D environment with large companies. I don't want to disclose too many details as I'm still in the recruitment process.

I asked between 130-140kCHF, they told me it was fine. I guess I should have ask more... I read online it's the starting salary at Google for example with a master degree from ETH.

so you just lost some money. by telling the company your expected range, your leverage for further negotiation is pretty much gone.
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  #28  
Old 11.09.2021, 12:03
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Re: Equivalent salary 90k Munich to Zurich?

As a network specialist I had 2 job offers from CH (Bern/Basel) for an IT network support role.
Both of them were 125K including bonuses (around 10k).
In the Netherlands I would earn half.

I managed to earn the same net salaries in other countries in the Europe being a contractor.

I took one in a pharma company in Bern then they made me redundant (together with many in the IT department)after 1 year+. The senior engineers roles were getting around 140....without overtime compensations or things like that.

Personal conclusion: IT is a risky area. Switzerland has no job protection so you are in effect a contractor . Based on my information, if you are a contractor, you should earn above 800Fr/day in CH. I got a similar offer 2 days before leaving CH .

If I were you , I would stay in Munich, unless you get a proper contractor rate to work in CH. I would consider at least 2 times what you are earning now.

EDIT: if you end up working with the wrong manager/organisation, he can squeeze you like a sponge leveraging on the fact that there is no job protection
EDIT2: it is infested by ticks

Last edited by marcofbbr; 11.09.2021 at 12:32.
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  #29  
Old 11.09.2021, 12:05
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Re: Equivalent salary 90k Munich to Zurich?

Okay, I asked a range first but they declined to give me some numbers...
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  #30  
Old 11.09.2021, 12:09
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Re: Equivalent salary 90k Munich to Zurich?

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As a network specialist I had 2 job offers from CH for an IT network support role.
Both of them were 125K including bonuses (around 10k).

I managed to earn the same net salaries in other countries in the Europe being a contractor.

I took one in a pharma company in Bern then they made me redundant after 1 year plus. The senior engineers roles were getting around 140....without overtime compensations or things like that.

Personal conclusion: IT is a risky area. Switzerland has no job protection so you are in effect a contractor . Based on my information, if you are a contractor, you should earn above 800Fr in CH.

If I were you , I would stay in Munich.

So I should stay in Munich as I would have a better job protection? I am not working as a contractor so far.
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  #31  
Old 11.09.2021, 12:16
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Re: Equivalent salary 90k Munich to Zurich?

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So I should stay in Munich as I would have a better job protection? I am not working as a contractor so far.
Well, job protection is one element to put on the table in my opinion. Note that I edited the post adding few minor details.

Other data you could use as a reference:
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...h&city2=Zurich
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  #32  
Old 11.09.2021, 12:18
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Re: Equivalent salary 90k Munich to Zurich?

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Okay, I asked a range first but they declined to give me some numbers...
They always decline that. You have to play the game and learn how to negotiate properly
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  #33  
Old 11.09.2021, 12:45
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Re: Equivalent salary 90k Munich to Zurich?

Maybe helpful for some future posters.

From a Geneva perspective, the junior salaries seen by Treverus would be 20% - 30% higher.

The Michael Page leadership level salaries are also much lower than large Geneva employers would expect to pay, even for base salary only.

And, international employers in Geneva are often not expecting French speaking for these roles.
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  #34  
Old 11.09.2021, 14:14
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Re: Equivalent salary 90k Munich to Zurich?

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They always decline that. You have to play the game and learn how to negotiate properly

OK - do you have any links or advice to learn this part?
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  #35  
Old 11.09.2021, 14:40
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Re: Equivalent salary 90k Munich to Zurich?

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Well, job protection is one element to put on the table in my opinion. Note that I edited the post adding few minor details.

Other data you could use as a reference:
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...h&city2=Zurich

I have seen several colleague getting a severance package in Germany from a US company as well...



Thanks for the link, interesting numbers.
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  #36  
Old 11.09.2021, 15:53
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Re: Equivalent salary 90k Munich to Zurich?

OP, so you are after the interviews and expect an offer? Easy then.

You gave them a range of 130-140, see what they offer, you can probably always argue your number was base, you have now more info on cost of living and so on. Then do a proper bottom line calculation between your 90 now and the offer. I have never seen an offer that could not be negotiated higher.

With German tax and Munich rents, I would be surprised if you needed 180 CHF to have the same standard.
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  #37  
Old 11.09.2021, 18:03
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Re: Equivalent salary 90k Munich to Zurich?

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OK - do you have any links or advice to learn this part?
Attend interviews even if not interested in new job and negotiate from position when you have nothing to lose. Repeat often, you will get to that point
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  #38  
Old 11.09.2021, 18:52
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Re: Equivalent salary 90k Munich to Zurich?

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OK - do you have any links or advice to learn this part?
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Attend interviews even if not interested in new job and negotiate from position when you have nothing to lose. Repeat often, you will get to that point
I think the key of any successful job negotiation is to
(1) know your walk away point i.e. minimum salary, minimum scope etc.,
(2) ask questions early on about the role, current set up to get an idea how desperate they are,
(3) show interest, but don't appear desparate,
(4) know your value by doing research before giving any numbers
(5) stay cool
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  #39  
Old 11.09.2021, 23:48
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Re: Equivalent salary 90k Munich to Zurich?

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I am working for an IT services company. In sales. I work on large tenders from banks, pharma and gov institutions. I believe I know the market rates really well... because at least the public ones have to often publish the results - so I dont just see what I am offering, but what the competitors offered as well.

I can see what day rates are normal in Zurich today and I dont even need a calculator to tell you that 140k will be quite difficult and 200k pretty impossible in my business. Sure, might be different if you are a true specialist for some obscure banking software nobody knows how to fix... but we are talking about averages here.

And it looks like I am not the only one thinking that way: https://www.it-markt.ch/news/2020-03...t-branche-2020

Very few jobs get you over the 120k perm base.
Agreed. Some big companies don't even pay that well. Daily rates at banks are not what they used to be, they've been decreasing since 2015.
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  #40  
Old 12.09.2021, 10:47
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Re: Equivalent salary 90k Munich to Zurich?

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I am working for an IT services company. In sales. I work on large tenders from banks, pharma and gov institutions. I believe I know the market rates really well... because at least the public ones have to often publish the results - so I dont just see what I am offering, but what the competitors offered as well.

I can see what day rates are normal in Zurich today and I dont even need a calculator to tell you that 140k will be quite difficult and 200k pretty impossible in my business. Sure, might be different if you are a true specialist for some obscure banking software nobody knows how to fix... but we are talking about averages here.

And it looks like I am not the only one thinking that way: https://www.it-markt.ch/news/2020-03...t-branche-2020

Very few jobs get you over the 120k perm base.
this makes sense, as IT services is low margin business. High revenue, but low margin. Thus salaries are capped.
It's a great industry for one to skill up, plenty of opportunities, interesting projects, etc.

But that's pretty much it. Most of usable people will jump this ship for higher paid jobs as soon as they can/get enough experience.
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