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  #21  
Old 01.10.2021, 08:55
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Re: C-permit has higher salary than B-permit??

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But in Salarium when you setup all the parameters, it will give you a list of salaries for different permits, and they are different... So age, education, working years etc.. are all the same but C-permit have several hundreds of CHF more per month than B-permit.

https://www.gate.bfs.admin.ch/salari...urSalaryCode=0
The difference between a male with C and B permit is 4%. The hundred of CHF more per month is 517 CHF.

Of course there should be a difference, it's caused by the requirements to grant a C.

Remember that C is given only when no criminal records, debts, social benefits, etc. It means C are selected top performers, while B salaries are weighted down by all the people who lost the job at worst moment, burnout, addiction, debts, bad luck with health, etc.
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  #22  
Old 01.10.2021, 10:12
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Re: C-permit has higher salary than B-permit??

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The difference between a male with C and B permit is 4%. The hundred of CHF more per month is 517 CHF.

Of course there should be a difference, it's caused by the requirements to grant a C.

Remember that C is given only when no criminal records, debts, social benefits, etc. It means C are selected top performers, while B salaries are weighted down by all the people who lost the job at worst moment, burnout, addiction, debts, bad luck with health, etc.
Your arguments seem to support B should have better salary than C. People hold B permit are more careful with criminal records, debts etc.. than people hold C, because they need these clean records to apply for C after 5 or 10 years, while people have already had C they don't need to care about these anymore. They can even live on social benefits without worrying about being sent home someday. While B permit cannot do that, otherwise they will fail to renew their permit for next year.
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  #23  
Old 01.10.2021, 10:50
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Re: C-permit has higher salary than B-permit??

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Your arguments seem to support B should have better salary than C. People hold B permit are more careful with criminal records, debts etc.. than people hold C, because they need these clean records to apply for C after 5 or 10 years, while people have already had C they don't need to care about these anymore. They can even live on social benefits without worrying about being sent home someday. While B permit cannot do that, otherwise they will fail to renew their permit for next year.
Let's look for some data on infractions to the penal code for Bs and Cs.

You put a lot on weight on incentives and motivations. I give more weight to "some people ifs going to fail no matter the motivation". Let the data answer the question

And..........failed to find the data. B, C and Ci permit holders are grouped into the same bucket for crime stats. Apparently, no way to make comparison between B and C https://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/de/home...l.1362569.html

The groups in the stats are Swiss, residents (B, C, Ci), shor-term (L, G), and asylum https://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfsstatic/d...7726192/master

Last edited by Axa; 01.10.2021 at 11:13. Reason: failed to find the data
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  #24  
Old 01.10.2021, 12:25
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Re: C-permit has higher salary than B-permit??

Surely it‘s just down to greater experience. I‘ve been doing my role for 5 years plus so I say to my manager I think I‘ve proven that I add value because of x,y and z, can we adjust my salary upwards, so I get a bit of a bump (as it generally goes if you are already being paid in the normal pay band, which at a statistically significant sample, you must be ).

Absolutely have that discussion with your boss, but as previously noted, go in and tell them that you want a raise because you now have a c permit and have noticed a correlation between pay and permit (which is absolutely not caused by the permit) is going to be met with a laugh.

Frankly, if you think getting a C permit is the best reason for you to get a pay rise, you don‘t deserve one.
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  #25  
Old 01.10.2021, 12:57
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Re: C-permit has higher salary than B-permit??

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Surely it‘s just down to greater experience. I‘ve been doing my role for 5 years plus so I say to my manager I think I‘ve proven that I add value because of x,y and z, can we adjust my salary upwards, so I get a bit of a bump (as it generally goes if you are already being paid in the normal pay band, which at a statistically significant sample, you must be ).

Absolutely have that discussion with your boss, but as previously noted, go in and tell them that you want a raise because you now have a c permit and have noticed a correlation between pay and permit (which is absolutely not caused by the permit) is going to be met with a laugh.

Frankly, if you think getting a C permit is the best reason for you to get a pay rise, you don‘t deserve one.

Yes, you are right, of course your value to your boss is probably the only reason they keep you and your performance decides your payment. However, C permit probably gives you some courage to negotiate with your boss, because rarely they suddenly tell you that we want to increase your salary because you are good.... People fight for his own interests and C permit may psychologically play a role here.
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  #26  
Old 01.10.2021, 13:05
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Re: C-permit has higher salary than B-permit??

It can't be stopped. It's self-sustaining now...
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Old 01.10.2021, 13:28
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Re: C-permit has higher salary than B-permit??

c permit might give you a better negotiating position and may be seen as more 'permanent' than b permit which together might lead to better wage negotiations. people on restricted b permits are clearly disadvantaged.

employers can get away with mistreating and not promoting employees if they know that they cannot leave for another employer. many stories of this in the US for those who are on restricted visas there.
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  #28  
Old 01.10.2021, 13:35
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Re: C-permit has higher salary than B-permit??

Not sure if this kind of permits exists in significant numbers but there's the B permit for "education with salary".

I earned half of my current income, in both cases B permit. So, people in universities with a B permit may be skewing down the average B income.
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  #29  
Old 01.10.2021, 13:47
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Re: C-permit has higher salary than B-permit??

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Not sure if this kind of permits exists in significant numbers but there's the B permit for "education with salary".

I earned half of my current income, in both cases B permit. So, people in universities with a B permit may be skewing down the average B income.
.


Education B includes phd students and postdocs, those are low paid. So the data may be left skewed, but in salarium the median and IQR seems not support this.

This is an interesting topic but may annoy others. I will stop here. Anyway I have got what I want to learn from the discussion. Thank you all, and have a nice weekend .
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  #30  
Old 01.10.2021, 13:50
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Re: C-permit has higher salary than B-permit??

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Yes, you are right, of course your value to your boss is probably the only reason they keep you and your performance decides your payment. However, C permit probably gives you some courage to negotiate with your boss, because rarely they suddenly tell you that we want to increase your salary because you are good.... People fight for his own interests and C permit may psychologically play a role here.
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c permit might give you a better negotiating position and may be seen as more 'permanent' than b permit which together might lead to better wage negotiations. people on restricted b permits are clearly disadvantaged.

employers can get away with mistreating and not promoting employees if they know that they cannot leave for another employer. many stories of this in the US for those who are on restricted visas there.
Perhaps there is an element of this, but the majority of b and c permit holders will be EEA (and UK prior to 2021) nationals, hence no tie of the permit to the job. What is psychologically a bigger hurdle to cross in my mind is getting to a position where you are entitled to claim RAV if you lose your job. NB RAV is not the same as social assistance and has no bearing only your right to renew your permit.

Some anecdata for you. I moved jobs twice when I had a B permit. I’ve had a C permit for over 7 years and have moved once. As a result of my increasing value to the company through knowledge and experience I have been promoted three times, once with a B and twice with the C. Each promotion brought a meaningful pay rise and was nothing to do with my permit. Coincidentally I moved roles shortly before I got my c permit and that year got a much larger bonus, as I had a better boss. That would skew your statistics.
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Old 01.10.2021, 14:10
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Re: C-permit has higher salary than B-permit??

There is a difference between B and C, just as there is between a swiss and C. It is an average based on a large pool. If it was a specific person with a B, compared to a specific person with the same credentials with a C, then there would not be a difference or it would be minimum.
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  #32  
Old 01.10.2021, 16:11
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Re: C-permit has higher salary than B-permit??

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I cannot prove C permit can cause better salary, but would like to think potential links between them. As I said, for me the 400 CHF difference between B and C in salarium is unlikely to be explained by just changing employer...
It's not the permit as such, it's the command of the local language that comes with it.

The longer you're here the more likely and the better you're likely to speak it, and IIRC you need to prove a certain proficiency to get the C.

Most crossborder commuters will be commuting from their home country into the same-language region, they even outearn the C holders.
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Old 05.10.2021, 08:45
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Re: C-permit has higher salary than B-permit??

Speaking for tech industry, lot of companies lowball newcomers and newcomers are not completely aware of local market rates, or are willing to accept below market offer as a starting point, to move here.
After few years, they get better understanding of compensations, market needs, build up their network and as a result end up not getting underpaid anymore.

And they get C permit in that process.
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Old 18.10.2021, 05:34
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Re: C-permit has higher salary than B-permit??

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Speaking for tech industry, lot of companies lowball newcomers and newcomers are not completely aware of local market rates, or are willing to accept below market offer as a starting point, to move here.
After few years, they get better understanding of compensations, market needs, build up their network and as a result end up not getting underpaid anymore.
This is commonplace and not only in Switzerland. The reason this is accepted is that when you're fresh off the proverbial boat, you don't know any better.

Whenever I hear someone whinge about 'wage gaps' I can't help but feel that people willfully ignore that what ever salary you command is as much based on how you sell yourself as any actual skills or experience you may have. Maybe the World shouldn't work this way, but that's life.

Some people are good at salary negotiations. Some undersell themselves. And naturally if you're new to a country, you're going to be at a disadvantage to someone who's been around for a few years and knows how things work, in any negotiation.

Additionally, there is an additional advantage to being a C-permit holder or naturalized citizen. Most foreigners who come to Switzerland stick around for a few years then move on and many companies are looking for employees who will stick around a lot longer than that, and so if there's evidence, such as a C-permit, that they intend to do so, that will make them more attractive - which in turn mean's they can command more money.
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