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  #21  
Old 05.10.2021, 12:26
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Re: 100k CHF starting salary realistic?

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When I started a certain big bank employed about 7,000 contractors and by the time I got out it was down to less that 2,000 with a Swiss staff reduction of about 24,000 staff And contract rates for the average Joe or Mary, not specialists, went from around CHF 200 down to about CHF 70 - 90
On the rates: I fully agree, thats what happened. But to be fair were some IT contractors bizarrely overpaid. Back then did I know guys who where contracting at the same bank for a decade cashing in the premium for being a "flexible" contractor... that was just silly. If you make 200k+ on a job that isnt that stressfull, doesnt involve any risk, wasnt some secret niche and really in truth wasnt that technically challenging either... you know its probably not going to work forever.
And yes, I'll say it: the banks had that many overpaid contractors as their internal IT was a huge pile of dead wood... and its nothing short of good to get rid of that. And if I am totally honest: even after all that cutting is there still quite some of that left.
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  #22  
Old 18.10.2021, 05:59
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Re: 100k CHF starting salary realistic?

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That is until they write an AI code which will automate the "dirty" 90% part of DS work, which is already happening.
There's quite a strong creative component to data science that I suspect will avoid automation for the time being. Consolidating the tools and libraries being employed will probably streamline things long before this happens.
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"they will all outsource all the non-essential jobs to low cost countries" is what I have been told 20 years ago and it didnt really happen. What did happen was that companies tried, failed massively, moved everything back and tried again a few years later. Its always the same arguments why it should work and in the end does not... and I predict that these waves will come and go for quite some time.
Next time this is tried it might stick however.

The principle reason IMHO that outsourcing has had mixed, to disastrous, results is that many organizations lacked the skills to manage remote resources. I think we've all come across management who couldn't organize an orgy in a brothel and having direct access to resources in-house was the only way they could fumble their way though the management process.

After a year and a half of Covid a lot has changed and the companies that have done well during this period have done so because they had or could develop those remote management skills - and this could well translate to successful outsourcing in the future.
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  #23  
Old 18.10.2021, 07:23
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Re: 100k CHF starting salary realistic?

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... and this could well translate to successful outsourcing in the future.
Of course that still doesn't address
1. The turnover of the outsource company's workers
2. Their competence
3. The fact that they deal with multiple clients simultaneously
4. The loss of knowledge of the client company's IT systems.
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  #24  
Old 18.10.2021, 09:59
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Re: 100k CHF starting salary realistic?

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Next time this is tried it might stick however.

The principle reason IMHO that outsourcing has had mixed, to disastrous, results is that many organizations lacked the skills to manage remote resources. I think we've all come across management who couldn't organize an orgy in a brothel and having direct access to resources in-house was the only way they could fumble their way though the management process.

After a year and a half of Covid a lot has changed and the companies that have done well during this period have done so because they had or could develop those remote management skills - and this could well translate to successful outsourcing in the future.
True, but in my experience was there another key issue which is also very visible thanks to covid. I was once witnessing an outsourcing project where a bank moved 3k jobs to India. The Sourcing and HR made sure that all the people over there were qualified. Lets just leave the typical stereotypes and discussions on those qualifications aside and assume the guys were technically all up to the job. The problem is that they have never worked in a bank (and if so is the banking sector in India probably quite different from a 1st world country). 100% of tech skills, literally zero domain knowledge. Several hours of time difference. Language issues were in my experience not an issue, but cultural differences were. Massively. Because the guys would say "yes" to any question you ask them... from "did you understand the task?" to "did you finish the job?" no matter what the actual answer was. Simply put: A reciepe for disaster. In an offshore set-up has every meeting to be formally planned and agreed, the simple "water cooler talk" where the IT would just shoot some questions to the business when needed did not happen for both the technical barriers as well as cultural ones. And none of that has changed.

I have managed teams based in India and got used to it. But it took quite some experience, cultural awareness and frankly a lot of management overhead to make it work. Most off-shoring projects I see still have the same unrealistic expectations of how everything is gonna get sooo cheap... and in 12 months the interfaces in CH will be burned out or quit the job.
I work for an IT services company where we have some near and offshoring projects that actually work and have been so for years. But it only works for very select companies who understand the effort, challenges and see it as a long term investment to make it work. Thats probably 10% or so of all the people trying...
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Old 18.10.2021, 10:43
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Re: 100k CHF starting salary realistic?

Bill Gates' quote comes to mind:


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Banking is necessary. Banks are not.
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  #26  
Old 19.10.2021, 16:20
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Re: 100k CHF starting salary realistic?

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Of course that still doesn't address
1. The turnover of the outsource company's workers
2. Their competence
3. The fact that they deal with multiple clients simultaneously
4. The loss of knowledge of the client company's IT systems.
None of that, except perhaps #3, is unique to outsourcing.
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Language issues were in my experience not an issue, but cultural differences were. Massively. Because the guys would say "yes" to any question you ask them... from "did you understand the task?" to "did you finish the job?" no matter what the actual answer was.
Absolutely. Anyone who's outsourced anything to India will have been driven insane by this; being told repeatedly everything is going swimmingly, only to face radio silence on the day of expected delivery.

These outsourcing problems we've come to expect are not going to vanish, however, in-house management may have improved as a result of Covid which will make outsourcing slightly more viable - so I'd probably amend my earlier comment to read it might stick a little bit more.
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  #27  
Old 19.10.2021, 16:41
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Re: 100k CHF starting salary realistic?

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If I graduate from ST.Gallen, MiQE/F masters degree and work in finance/data analyst positions, would it be unrealistic to expect around 100k CHF a year? I currently have work experience as an intern, and planning to keep working during my masters. Expected to have about 2-3 years of experience after graduating.
seems low to me. 120-150 would seem more average.
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  #28  
Old 19.10.2021, 17:31
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Re: 100k CHF starting salary realistic?

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Of course that still doesn't address
1. The turnover of the outsource company's workers
2. Their competence
3. The fact that they deal with multiple clients simultaneously
4. The loss of knowledge of the client company's IT systems.
It's #1 for us, domain knowledge back to 0 with each turnover happening 1-2x in a year. #3 is real. #4 slowly happens but it does
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  #29  
Old 19.10.2021, 17:42
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Re: 100k CHF starting salary realistic?

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however, in-house management may have improved as a result of Covid which will make outsourcing slightly more viable - so I'd probably amend my earlier comment to read it might stick a little bit more.
Inshallah.
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  #30  
Old 19.10.2021, 18:24
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Re: 100k CHF starting salary realistic?

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Inshallah.
Yes, I've also had the Saudi experience...
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