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Old 06.10.2021, 16:49
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Reference letter issues

Hi guys, appreciate your help / advice.

I started a PhD 13 months ago, having worked in industry for 6 years since my master's. I had reservations about the job, and agreed with the professor to 'try it out' for a year.

A year passed and I decided it wasn't for me. The professor was in general happy with my work and surprised when I told her my intentions. Since then she has been exceptionally cold and generally difficult with me, culminating in my final 'exit interview' where she belittled my work in a very unprofessional way, with unfounded and anecdotal claims. I believe she has a personality disorder but that's another story (could fill a novel), she was a large part of reason for my leaving in the first place.

She's writing me a reference letter but I want use a post-doc in the same lab as my reference. He has essentially been my line manager, knows me far better than the professor, and is aware of all the positive impacts I have had on various projects.

The problem is, the post-doc is worried that he will get into trouble with the professor if she finds out about it. She has huge ego problems and I can imagine this might be the case. But it is surely my choice and unacceptable for her to have any influence whatsoever on who I choose as my reference?

What do we do? How can I assuage my post-doc colleague's concerns without 'waking the dragon'?

Any advice appreciated. Thanks for your time!
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Old 06.10.2021, 17:02
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Re: Reference letter issues

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But it is surely my choice and unacceptable for her to have any influence whatsoever on who I choose as my reference?
Anyone can give you a personal reference, so long and it is not on headed paper from your employer. But an official reference is a different matter, there will be procedures to be followed and delegated persons authorised to give it on behalf of your employer.

If I was your colleague I would not do it, as there is nothing in for them but trouble. And if I were you I would not use a reluctant referee, they might bail on you the day you need them and then it would like you were struggling to get a referee.
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Old 06.10.2021, 17:15
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Re: Reference letter issues

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Anyone can give you a personal reference, so long and it is not on headed paper from your employer. But an official reference is a different matter, there will be procedures to be followed and delegated persons authorised to give it on behalf of your employer.

If I was your colleague I would not do it, as there is nothing in for them but trouble. And if I were you I would not use a reluctant referee, they might bail on you the day you need them and then it would like you were struggling to get a referee.
Just get one from HR confirming your employment dates. Personal reference can be from your line manager, how would the professor find out?
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Old 06.10.2021, 20:21
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Re: Reference letter issues

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Just get one from HR confirming your employment dates. Personal reference can be from your line manager, how would the professor find out?
Because like everything in Switzerland it's a small circle where everyone knows everyone. And even if you don't give someone as a reference that does not mean they won't be contacted.
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Old 06.10.2021, 21:52
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Re: Reference letter issues

I take it you want to move back to industry. Just be forthright about trying the PhD and wanting to move back to industry of your own volition. The letter from an academic won't matter, but with this approach you won't even need to bother with a reference.
If an industry recruiter wants a letter from academia, ask yourself why, and feel free to override; that would be a bureaucrat who does not see your skills.
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Old 06.10.2021, 23:17
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Re: Reference letter issues

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If an industry recruiter wants a letter from academia, ask yourself why, and feel free to override; that would be a bureaucrat who does not see your skills.
Agents apply whatever criteria their client sets down and if you don’t meet the criteria you are not going to pass the filter and you will not get to talk to their client. That is one of the reasons the client is paying them!
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Old 07.10.2021, 00:09
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Re: Reference letter issues

OP worked six years in industry. That should give enough of a network to bypass agents. Again, if someone is not willing to look past the last 13 months, is OP sure s/he wants to work for them?
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Old 07.10.2021, 12:42
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Re: Reference letter issues

So maybe the right course of action is to use the official confirmation of employment from HR, and my colleague as a personal reference. And consider it highly unlikely that a prospective employer would contact the professor out of the blue. I mentioned this to my friend and he is currently OK with the idea.

I do agree that if he still has reservations then it's best to avoid the risk of him backing out and to not use him.

Thanks, and any more thoughts/experiences still welcomed
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Old 09.10.2021, 01:39
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Re: Reference letter issues

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So maybe the right course of action is to use the official confirmation of employment from HR, and my colleague as a personal reference. And consider it highly unlikely that a prospective employer would contact the professor out of the blue. I mentioned this to my friend and he is currently OK with the idea.

I do agree that if he still has reservations then it's best to avoid the risk of him backing out and to not use him.

Thanks, and any more thoughts/experiences still welcomed
Makes sense. It is unlikely that an HR person would ask what you were doing during the PhD, and if they do, reply about what you were working on... end of that line of questioning. If they ask why you stopped, easy. If they ask why no letter from a professor, well, professors don't necessarily know how to write letters for non-academics anyway.

You will owe that postdoc, but they should welcome the contact you will become in industry.
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Old 14.10.2021, 13:34
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Re: Reference letter issues

Although this is a slightly different question, I'm including it here because of the thread title - "Reference Letter Issues".

I was recently asked whether an employer is, in fact, legally obliged to supply any kind of certificate of employment, or whether they may legitimately refuse to attest that the employee was employed by them. Since I looked it up, I figured I may as well post it here.

https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/2...7/de#art_330_a (German)
https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/2...7/fr#art_330_a (French)
https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/2...7/en#art_330_a (English)

As I read it, this means that an employer of an employee who is leaving must issue the employee with an employment reference. It must include, at the very least, "Mr Former-Employee was employed by us as a NAMEOFJOB from Start-DATE to End-DATE." An employee can request that the document state only these minimal facts.

Unless the employee wants only that bare minimum, the employer is obliged to write a full reference, stating when you worked there, and what your role is and what you do, and how satisfied they are with your performance, and states that you are still employed.

These rules apply equally while the employee is still employed (in German, this is interim reference is called a Zwischenzeugnis) and also when the contract is terminated.

What's to be done if an employer refuses?
I'd suggest writing to the employer (in a letter, in an envelope, and only if there has already been some discussion about this, then send that letter by registered mail - and unless the company's working language was English, write in the local official Swiss language) to request the reference (possibly add: in terms of Article 333a of the OR).

Bear in mind, though, before writing to them, that only some employers don't want to supply a reference for bad reasons:
  • malice, or
  • because the contract wasn't done properly/legally, or
  • because they have been remiss in paying the obligatory contributions to the Social Security (in German AHV, in French AVS).
It is wise to check with the AHV/AVS office that these payments have, in fact, been made.

However, other employers are not deliberately withholding, but just slack, or it's not clear whose job it is to write references. In such cases, it can be a help if the employee makes the effort to gather all the facts and writes them up. Full name and address, date of commencement, date of termination, roles, ranks, tasks, responsibilities, skills, projects and all of those with dates. This leaves the employer (whether HR or line manager) with much less work to do, only having to add their views on the quality of the work and working relationships. Repeatedly, I've seen things Get Done when once the employee does the bulk of the work, in this way.

Last edited by doropfiz; 14.10.2021 at 13:49.
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Old 15.10.2021, 19:30
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Re: Reference letter issues

So my reference letter arrived. I would like to hear your thoughts.

I'll paraphrase it:

Paragraph 1:
He was employed between these dates
He was hired work in these areas
This required a mixture of skills including some particular ones where he has the most expertise.

Paragraph 2:
During his time, his main tasks were ...
Within these tasks, he did some more specific tasks.
The results of some of those tasks.

Paragraph 3:
Within another of those main tasks, he did some more specific tasks.

Paragraph 4:
He decided not to continue in my lab and to return to industry
I thank him for his contribution.
Sincerely , x

Am i right in saying that this is not a letter of recommendation as it does not contain any positive comments about my performance. There is plenty of positive feedback in emails.

To me it is malice - a childish retaliation.

So I guess my options are something like:

Should I go above her head and try and get higher powers from the faculty involved, to improve the reference letter?

I know it is probably more effort than it is worth, seeing as an academic reference is of limited use anyway. But, I would really like to expose her behaviour
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Old 15.10.2021, 19:56
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Re: Reference letter issues

I’m sorry but I really don’t approve of your approach.
You are trashing your PhD adviser while asking her postdoc to give you a reference.
You then proceed to be upset about your reference letter.

1) the postdoc shouldn’t be your reference. That’s disloyal to his/her employer, the professor
2) if you have an issue with your professor you need to bring it up with the mediator
3) you shouldn’t use a public forum to criticise your professor. You should have a private meeting with her to discuss your points of view
And last but not least the reference letter you have received is perfectly within the boundries of Swiss labor law: it states the identity, time frame, tasks, responsabilities and results. The law forbids a negative reference as not to be an obstacle to future employment but it does not forbid the option to say absolutely nothing about the employee’s character.

You have nothing to win with the approach you’re taking and it is absolutely in your personal interest to have a decent work reference if you intend to remain in Switzerland. So I would suggest you have an open and kind conversation with your prof, a sort of exit interview if you may, so that you can be on better terms.

Best of luck and I genuinely hope it will work out for you.
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Old 15.10.2021, 20:05
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Re: Reference letter issues

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the reference letter you have received is perfectly within the boundries of Swiss labor law: it states the identity, time frame, tasks, responsabilities and results. The law forbids a negative reference as not to be an obstacle to future employment but it does not forbid the option to say absolutely nothing about the employee’s character.

You have nothing to win with the approach you’re taking and it is absolutely in your personal interest to have a decent work reference if you intend to remain in Switzerland. So I would suggest you have an open and kind conversation with your prof, a sort of exit interview if you may, so that you can be on better terms.

Best of luck and I genuinely hope it will work out for you.
I think this is the part of your feedback that is what skiahman was trying to find out.

Skiahman, you might not realise it, but as I've written elsewhere, first, this forum is fully public, so anyone from your current department and your future employers could be reading what you write here, and Switzerland is a very small country, separated by language areas, and then each sub-segment of life is an even smaller pool of people, so it is wise not to burn your bridges. Within such small numbers, sooner or later the people you work with now may be your colleagues, superiors or juniors, your suppliers or clients, one way or another, for years, if you stay in Switzerland (and to a lesser extent, possibly, even if you don't.)

I agree with the advice to speak directly to the person and ask her to include some of what she has previously written in this mail of DATE, and that mail fo DATE. (Give her a copy, and highlight the parts she wrote that you think are most relevant and positive.)

If she will not change the text, you could approach the HR department with the reference, and the mails, and ask them to include parts.

If that fails, then you could, if you used that reference in the future when applying for new positions, include with it the mail with the most positive feedback most relevant to your future job.

Last edited by doropfiz; 15.10.2021 at 20:17.
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Old 15.10.2021, 20:16
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Re: Reference letter issues

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1) the postdoc shouldn’t be your reference. That’s disloyal to his/her employer, the professor
I don't actually agree with this part.

I have found references from colleagues useful. This, in all directions:
  • I have obtained them from colleagues, myself.
  • As a colleague, I have also written such references.
  • When recruiting, I have welcomed them submitted by applicants.

I do not see writing them as disloyal in any way. Exception, of course: if the person fakes, i.e. uses a letterhead to which they have no authority or purports to have a role they do not, or signs with a title not theirs.

References by colleagues, or even subordinates, can be useful especially where the writer knows more, or more closely, about the projects, specialities and work ethics of the person than the manager or HR might have done.

While an employer's reference states the dates of employment, a colleague states the dates when he/she worked together with the person. I have sometimes seen both references submitted, together.
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Old 15.10.2021, 20:22
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Re: Reference letter issues

We’ll have to agree to disagree 🌸
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Old 16.10.2021, 17:18
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Re: Reference letter issues

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So my reference letter arrived. I would like to hear your thoughts.

I'll paraphrase it:

Paragraph 1:
He was employed between these dates
He was hired work in these areas
This required a mixture of skills including some particular ones where he has the most expertise.

Paragraph 2:
During his time, his main tasks were ...
Within these tasks, he did some more specific tasks.
The results of some of those tasks.

Paragraph 3:
Within another of those main tasks, he did some more specific tasks.

Paragraph 4:
He decided not to continue in my lab and to return to industry
I thank him for his contribution.
Sincerely , x

Am i right in saying that this is not a letter of recommendation as it does not contain any positive comments about my performance. There is plenty of positive feedback in emails.

To me it is malice - a childish retaliation.

So I guess my options are something like:

Should I go above her head and try and get higher powers from the faculty involved, to improve the reference letter?

I know it is probably more effort than it is worth, seeing as an academic reference is of limited use anyway. But, I would really like to expose her behaviour
We may lack context, but I would say: Zen, take the letter and move on.


The letter is fine. It's not strong as a recommendation letter, but as a reference, it's all you want. Given your plan and trajectory, letters from industry are what matters.

Perhaps you had set specific expectations or even made a formal agreement when starting that the professor did not meet. Take it to her if you must, but don't expect that to change the letter.

On the other side, put yourself in her shoes. I can imagine that she feels left in lurch. Replacing a PhD at 13 months is going to be hard. She invested in you, for pretty much nothing. She may lose funding. She is definitely losing face.

At least one of you has to get over this. Be the wiser one.
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Old 16.10.2021, 18:24
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Re: Reference letter issues

When my daughter was offered a sponsored doctorate following her masters (in CH), she refused. And I completely respect that (although it would have felt good to me to have a Doc daughter ). I also respect that you opted out.

If you opt for this route, then you are truly making a life decision.

Last long-term partners (over the past decades here in CH) are nowadays a globally renowned cancer research physician (pathology), and a Swiss federal judge. I was there as a partner for years during their studies (wow, how time passes)

The politics behind getting a PhD can be truly dreadful, and life draining.

It is really not unusual to opt-out.

As others have stated, your reference will be issued according to Swiss laws - and I‘m sure that you have nothing to worry about. Get back if it‘s an issue however!
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Old 17.10.2021, 09:18
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Re: Reference letter issues

I find the answers to the OP kindly and supportive and rightfully so.
Nevertheless, I would like to reiterate the message above for the good of your future career OP, and I respectfully disagree, completely, with the idea that «only reference letters from industry count».

Future employers in industry in Switzerland will want to know what you’ve done for 13 months and most probably they will reach out for a reference to your PhD adviser as your former employer.

It is good for you to leave on good terms.
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Old 17.10.2021, 11:54
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I find the answers to the OP kindly and supportive and rightfully so....
Yes.

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Future employers ... in Switzerland will want to know what you’ve done for 13 months and most probably they will reach out for a reference to your PhD adviser as your former employer.

It is good for you to leave on good terms.
Yes. I agree with these points. It's a small, small world, and best not to slam any doors as one is leaving.

OP, if you can manage to get to at least a fair, square conversation with your supervisor, where you can say that you have thought about this deeply, that your decision to leave is not sudden, that you understand that that is at least in part inconvenient for your supervisor and you are sorry about that, for her, and and that a part of you is sad for yourself and another part relieved because you now know this to be the right decision, that you wish her well and who knows how the world turns, so some of us may meet up again at some stage... that would be good for you, in the future. As far as possible and within your power, shift the matter in to being at peace.
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Old 17.10.2021, 12:35
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Re: Reference letter issues

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Yes.



Yes. I agree with these points. It's a small, small world, and best not to slam any doors as one is leaving.

OP, if you can manage to get to at least a fair, square conversation with your supervisor, where you can say that you have thought about this deeply, that your decision to leave is not sudden, that you understand that that is at least in part inconvenient for your supervisor and you are sorry about that, for her, and and that a part of you is sad for yourself and another part relieved because you now know this to be the right decision, that you wish her well and who knows how the world turns, so some of us may meet up again at some stage... that would be good for you, in the future. As far as possible and within your power, shift the matter in to being at peace.
That can be a really hard, tongue biting discussion sometimes. Especially when your misogynist Professor has just won the Nobel prize (yup, really been there)
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