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Old 14.03.2006, 20:39
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Redundancy Terms?

Firstly, very sorry to hear about your problems litespeed - read your thread earlier and I wish you all the best in the future. Hopefully something good will come out of it.

It got me thinking though - what are Swiss redundancy terms? Can anyone recommend any websites? I am completely in the dark with Swiss terms (hell I don't even know the laws of this country!).
70% of salary for a while seems OK.

Anyone know anything?
TIA
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Old 14.03.2006, 21:17
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Re: Redundancy Terms?

Thanks for your concern, I think it will be the best for me in the long run.

I don't think the Swiss differentiate between a terminated employment contract and redundancy...bottom line is if you are unemployed or not.

I can only link you to the RAV broschure on unemployment:
http://www.treffpunkt-arbeit.ch/secopdf/de/b_arbeitslos

I hope this helps.
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Old 19.03.2006, 06:17
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Re: Redundancy Terms?

Quote:
It got me thinking though - what are Swiss redundancy terms? Can anyone recommend any websites? I am completely in the dark with Swiss terms (hell I don't even know the laws of this country!).
70% of salary for a while seems OK.
By definition redundancy is a special agreement between the company and the employees. In Switzerland it (its properly called Massenentlassung) occurs when a minimum of 10 people or 10% of the workforce are simultaneously(within 30 days) terminated. As far as nice packages and a week for every year and so on - Nada. Here they state that in this case, they need to **inform** the union (if there is one or alternatively work council) in advance with a written reasoning and the number involved and the relevant RAV. You will often here of a social plan, but this is mentioned but not governed by law. ie it is optional. Generally a social plan will retire early over 60s, provide some form of help to find work and might extend the notice period ie employ you longer. But then again it might not exist.

As a beginners guide to your rights in CH I can recommend "Das Wichtigste zum Arbeitsrecht".

Richard
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Old 20.03.2006, 15:10
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Re: Redundancy Terms?

Quote:
By definition redundancy is a special agreement between the company and the employees. In Switzerland it (its properly called Massenentlassung) occurs when a minimum of 10 people or 10% of the workforce are simultaneously(within 30 days) terminated. As far as nice packages and a week for every year and so on - Nada. Here they state that in this case, they need to **inform** the union (if there is one or alternatively work council) in advance with a written reasoning and the number involved and the relevant RAV. You will often here of a social plan, but this is mentioned but not governed by law. ie it is optional. Generally a social plan will retire early over 60s, provide some form of help to find work and might extend the notice period ie employ you longer. But then again it might not exist.

As a beginners guide to your rights in CH I can recommend "Das Wichtigste zum Arbeitsrecht".

Richard
thanks helpful info richard. thanks for that. luckily i dont need that info at the moment, but that was a very concise explanation of the current situation surrounding this.

krlock2
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  #5  
Old 04.09.2009, 16:52
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Re: Redundancy Terms?

Iíve just been made redundant. I donít mind. I was planning to leave anyway. My company knew that and, as a result, Iíve got the feeling that my company is taking advantage of my position.

I had expected to be let go in October & be on 3 months gardening leave Ė but it had to be now. Which puts me out of 2 months wages Ė but this is a matter of mis-managed expectations and a communication breakdown. There isnít really anything I can do on that front and Iíll get over it. Whatís bugging me is the redundancy payment that Iíve been offered.

I work for a multinational, in November it would have been 6 years, 2 years in Switzerland since July, and 3.5 years before here. According to what HR are telling me, the company is not obliged to give me any extra severance pay Ė only my 3 month notice period (as per my contract), and (according to them) I should be grateful that they are giving me an additional lump sum of 2 weeks salary (to correspond with 2 years working in Switzerland). But hereís the rub: my employment has been continuous, and they made sure that my service record was carried over from my previous post when I moved to Switzerland.

I donít know Swiss employment law, and I donít trust my HR. From what Iíve read on here, it does seem that lump sum redundancy payments are not that common. But I have the feeling that they are trying to pull a fast one because they knew I was going to leave. Is it reasonable/usual for them to only recognize the years I have worked in Switzerland? Or am I within my rights to ask them for acknowledgment of 6 years service? Itís not an enormous amount of money weíre talking about here (of course it would come in useful) Ė but what I really donít like the idea that they are taking me for a fool.
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Old 04.09.2009, 17:23
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Re: Redundancy Terms?

Redundancy payments are only provided for in exceptional circumstances (very long years of service, close to retirement, etc.) which I am afraid you don't seem to fulfil. I guess the Swiss consider that given the good unemployment coverage no further payments are necessary. It doesn't sound to me like your company is pulling a fast one, merely sticking to the letter of the law.

Sorry to hear about your plight though. From a company point of view I can understand the thinking. If someone is already planning to leave and you are looking to trim the headcount those are the first on the list. Kind of makes sense I would think (been there, seen it, done it).
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Old 04.09.2009, 19:13
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Re: Redundancy Terms?

Unaware of a legal right to redundancy payment when the contractual notice of termination is given.
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Old 04.09.2009, 22:28
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Re: Redundancy Terms?

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Unaware of a legal right to redundancy payment when the contractual notice of termination is given.
Actually OR339b states that staff who are at least 50 years old and have worked for a company for 20 years or more entitled to a redundancy payment.

This web site gives more information about redundancy payments:

http://www.entlassungsabfindung.ch/

Link to OR 339b (German also):

http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/220/a339b.html
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Old 09.10.2009, 16:52
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Re: Redundancy Terms?

Hi there,

I'm in the same boat. Multinational company for 11 years, moved here 3 years ago ... now being made "redundant" ... or being "let go" as they say. Basically, I'm being laid off.

I will be meeting with HR early next week to learn more about any "redundancy package" that might exist. Regarding my 11 year status, they give me 24.5 days of vacation per my 11 years with the company so I can't imagine that they'd only view my 3 years in CH at this point. Either choose 11 years or 3 years, but not go back and forth. So, I'm assuming they'll pick 11 years.

I guess from reading this forum that there is no Swiss law about getting any package from employers ... just whatever the employer feels is right (for me who is not near retirement age).

BUT ... I seem to recall hearing or reading somewhere that I'm entitled to 4 months of full pay after 10+ years with the company. Perhaps it was in the company policy / employee handbook. I'll have to read that again.

Is there REALLY no law about "redundancy packages" or "severance pay"?

I understand my rights regarding unemployment insurance, so no need to reply with unemployment insurance info. I'm just looking to see what the company "should be" offering me prior to learning what they will offer me.

P.S. Our CEO was laid off 1 year ago after 11 years with us as well. He got a HUGE package, several gifts and a really expensive fairwell dinner. I'm not expecting ANYTHING nearly that grand, but I guess I can mention it if they end up offering me nothing!
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Old 09.10.2009, 17:08
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Re: Redundancy Terms?

Any type of "redundacy" is always pre-agreed in your contract. Us normal mortals seldom have anything but our relatively short notice period but at the level of CEO the picture is usually rather different. And even if it is only an unusually long notice period of say one to two years which in the end everybody knows will be converted into "gardening leave".

So I strongly recommend everyone that is in the process of negotiating a contract to work in Switzerland to put your efforts into the notice period and make that one as long as possible. It may come in handy one day.
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Old 09.10.2009, 19:54
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Re: Redundancy Terms?

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Hi there,

I'm in the same boat. Multinational company for 11 years, moved here 3 years ago ... now being made "redundant" ... or being "let go" as they say. Basically, I'm being laid off.

I will be meeting with HR early next week to learn more about any "redundancy package" that might exist. Regarding my 11 year status, they give me 24.5 days of vacation per my 11 years with the company so I can't imagine that they'd only view my 3 years in CH at this point. Either choose 11 years or 3 years, but not go back and forth. So, I'm assuming they'll pick 11 years.

I guess from reading this forum that there is no Swiss law about getting any package from employers ... just whatever the employer feels is right (for me who is not near retirement age).

BUT ... I seem to recall hearing or reading somewhere that I'm entitled to 4 months of full pay after 10+ years with the company. Perhaps it was in the company policy / employee handbook. I'll have to read that again.

Is there REALLY no law about "redundancy packages" or "severance pay"?

I understand my rights regarding unemployment insurance, so no need to reply with unemployment insurance info. I'm just looking to see what the company "should be" offering me prior to learning what they will offer me.

P.S. Our CEO was laid off 1 year ago after 11 years with us as well. He got a HUGE package, several gifts and a really expensive fairwell dinner. I'm not expecting ANYTHING nearly that grand, but I guess I can mention it if they end up offering me nothing!
Your answers are in your employment contract and the employer's generosity. If they want to be nasty, they can legally claim that the Swiss entity only employed you for 3 years.

Good luck with your negotiations.
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Old 09.10.2009, 19:56
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Re: Redundancy Terms?

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Any type of "redundacy" is always pre-agreed in your contract. Us normal mortals seldom have anything but our relatively short notice period but at the level of CEO the picture is usually rather different. And even if it is only an unusually long notice period of say one to two years which in the end everybody knows will be converted into "gardening leave".

So I strongly recommend everyone that is in the process of negotiating a contract to work in Switzerland to put your efforts into the notice period and make that one as long as possible. It may come in handy one day.
In a recession, it is comforting to have a long notice period. But once boom times arrive, the long notice becomes a shackle.
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Old 09.10.2009, 21:13
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Re: Redundancy Terms?



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Us normal mortals seldom have anything ...
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Old 11.11.2009, 10:25
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Re: Redundancy Terms?

Hello all ... I wanted to provide you with an update as to what HR offered me, in case it helps any of you.

If you read higher up I give a synopsis of my employment (11 year tenure, relocated here 3 years ago, being made redundant now). The only thing in my contract states that after 10 years there is a 3 month notice period, which actually is Swiss law anyway.

HR has offered me:
  • 3 months of pay (my notice period) without me having to come to work. They said it was so that I could be looking for another job. I agreed and couldn't actually envision that I would be going to work anyway since my position is no longer valid.
  • 3 additional months of pay
  • My bonus for 2009, dependant on all the factors (personal and company performance)
To me, this is pretty good, especially since I was only expecting the legal minimum of 3 months pay. So, technically I'm getting 2x my expectations.

Now, I'm going back to try to get more ... not money, just some little things that will help me A LOT, but don't mean all that much to them, such as:
  • my 3-year old laptop
  • my 3-year old mobile phone (with the number that all my friends now have)
  • a letter stating that I was made redundant because the company has decided to relocate my position to Germany, but I did not accept the terms of their offer. This letter should also state that I was not let go for any performance issues. (FYI - the German offer is 37% lower than my current net pay with harldy any relocation expenses, plus they expect me to be there 5 days a week starting 3 weeks from now)
  • continuation of my accident insurance for at least my notice period and perhaps another 3 months after that
I will tell them that I will need these things to help me get another job ... in addition to French lessons, but this I will not ask them for (just make them aware of it).

I can tell you that getting 2x my expectation might be attributed to the fact that I've been tooting my own horn these past few weeks to ensure everyone involved in this decision is agreeing that this has nothing to do with my performance ... and that in fact, my performance has been great! Basically, I've been setting myself up to have an advantage in case I really needed to negotiate for more.

The last thing I'll suggest, in case you're in this same boat, is to negotiate for as much as you can and not just take whatever they offer you. It's really up to you!
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Old 12.11.2009, 21:13
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Re: Redundancy Terms?

6 months + a bonus ? That's a pretty darn good redundency package.
Just consider that you just might get lucky (the market is picking up slightly) and you quickly walk into another position ?
That's a nice little Christmas stocking !
Hope it works out for you
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Old 26.05.2010, 23:28
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Re: Redundancy Terms?

In the UK, they have statutory redundancy payments.
Is an agreement between employees and the employer to pay severance pay considered statutory. Would this be considered earned income? I don't believe in general employees are entitled to severance payment by law in Switzerland.
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Old 27.05.2010, 00:15
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Re: Redundancy Terms?

Swiss law states that the employee gets 2 months pay or 3 months pay if the employee has worked for the company for less than 10 year or more than 10 years, respectively.

In my case, I had worked there 11 years and so I got 3 months pay, but I also got an additional 3 months (and my bonus).

Also, my chomage started the month following my contract end, despite having received the additional 3 months pay and bonus. All in all, not a bad way to end my 11 year term with a company that I was no longer happy to work for.
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Old 28.05.2010, 19:32
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Re: Redundancy Terms?

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By definition redundancy is a special agreement between the company and the employees. In Switzerland it (its properly called Massenentlassung) occurs when a minimum of 10 people or 10% of the workforce are simultaneously(within 30 days) terminated.

Richard
So Richard,
Hope I dont get slated for asking, but what if less then 10 people are made redundant, does that have another name?
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Old 28.05.2010, 19:47
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Re: Redundancy Terms?

When I was let go from my job I was told my position was being made redundant. I was laid-off and now I am unemployed ... these are the terms that are used in the US, although the company where I worked is located in Geneva. Whatever the correct term is in English (whether it be BRITISH English or American English) the end result is the same ... YOU need to negotiate for as much as you can while they are deciding to end your employment.

Another word I keep hearing in Switzerland is fired, as in "Did you hear that John was fired?". In the US, this means that John did something so WRONG, like stealing money or sexually harassing someone, that the company FIRED him!!! This obviously is different from John being "let go" or being "laid off" or being made "redundant", yet whenever someone loses their job in Switzerland people tend to say that the person was "FIRED".

My point ... language is an ever-changing thing and it differs from region to region (and from country to country), so even if your employer may or may not know the correct English word to use ... the important thing for you to remember is to focus on the bigger picture (and negotiate for as much as possible to help you get another job). It's up to YOU!
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Old 22.11.2010, 20:12
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Re: Redundancy Terms?

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Swiss law states that the employee gets 2 months pay or 3 months pay if the employee has worked for the company for less than 10 year or more than 10 years, respectively.

In my case, I had worked there 11 years and so I got 3 months pay, but I also got an additional 3 months (and my bonus).

Also, my chomage started the month following my contract end, despite having received the additional 3 months pay and bonus. All in all, not a bad way to end my 11 year term with a company that I was no longer happy to work for.
I guess the 11 years with the same company helped get the extra 3 months.
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