Reference letters [Zeugnis ] - Q&A thread

[PaddyG]

Reading this thread with interest as I have recenty applied for another job and they asked for my references up-front. I came to work in CH in 95 as a specialist in a medical diagnostic laboratory, but left after 4 years to pursue my PhD thesis in Bern. Being completely unaware of the Swiss system, I didn't ask for a Zeugnis, nor was I offered one. Having completed my PhD, been working in research for 4 years, but looking to move into the private sector as a Product Manager. It's been quite a struggle getting my old references, my previous boss in my 1st job is now with another company, but she agreed to write a Zeugnis for me, and it was actually pretty good (checked by friend who is quite high up in Swisscom ). She suggested I contact my previous employer for an Arbeitsbestätigung, just so I have an official document from that company. Also, should I ask for zeugnis from my PhD supervisor, or should a copy of my PhD certificate suffice? Since I consider this a more a education than work experience? What about my old job in the UK, since UK employers are probabl not so used to writing references up front like that? Also complicated by the fact that it was 12 years ago, my old boss has retired and the new head of the lab was the deputy in my time there. Will my prospective employer be concerned with my employment all those years ago in another country?
It's really been an ey-opener and I'm glad I won't have to do it again.

[Richard]

	Quote:	PaddyG
	Reading this thread with interest as I have recenty applied for another job and they asked for my references up-front. I came to work in CH in 95 as a specialist in a medical diagnostic laboratory, but left after 4 years to pursue my PhD thesis in Bern. Being completely unaware of the Swiss system, I didn't ask for a Zeugnis, nor was I offered one. Having completed my PhD, been working in research for 4 years, but looking to move into the private sector as a Product Manager. It's been quite a struggle getting my old references, my previous boss in my 1st job is now with another company, but she agreed to write a Zeugnis for me, and it was actually pretty good (checked by friend who is quite high up in Swisscom ). She suggested I contact my previous employer for an Arbeitsbestätigung, just so I have an official document from that company. Also, should I ask for zeugnis from my PhD supervisor, or should a copy of my PhD certificate suffice? Since I consider this a more a education than work experience? What about my old job in the UK, since UK employers are probabl not so used to writing references up front like that? Also complicated by the fact that it was 12 years ago, my old boss has retired and the new head of the lab was the deputy in my time there. Will my prospective employer be concerned with my employment all those years ago in another country? It's really been an ey-opener and I'm glad I won't have to do it again.

Don't worry about anything in the UK. If you came here 12 years ago this has cobwebs on now. Also in your c.v. you really only need to give a one line description to these roles. As for your time in Switzerland you should have a reference but now it is so long ago you have no right to get this - you can go to court for a reference for up to five years after you leave! As far as your time doing paid research I would recommend getting a reference for that. The Swiss do like their references although I only ever read the last two... Your PhD is more likely to open the doors though so don't get too hot under the collar

[PaddyG]

	Quote:	Richard
	Don't worry about anything in the UK. If you came here 12 years ago this has cobwebs on now. Also in your c.v. you really only need to give a one line description to these roles. As for your time in Switzerland you should have a reference but now it is so long ago you have no right to get this - you can go to court for a reference for up to five years after you leave! As far as your time doing paid research I would recommend getting a reference for that. The Swiss do like their references although I only ever read the last two... Your PhD is more likely to open the doors though so don't get too hot under the collar

Thanks for the reply. So your saying I shouldn't bother with a reference from my PhD supervisor, as the actual certificate speaks for itself? And when you mean paid research, are you referring to my current job? Thing is, I'm still here and my actual contract isn't up for another year, though I can leave at any time with the necessary notice etc. I haven't even informed my boss that I've applied for another position since this is something that came up out of the blue and I didn't want to miss out on the opportunity.

[Richard]

	Quote:	PaddyG
	Thanks for the reply. So your saying I shouldn't bother with a reference from my PhD supervisor, as the actual certificate speaks for itself? And when you mean paid research, are you referring to my current job? Thing is, I'm still here and my actual contract isn't up for another year, though I can leave at any time with the necessary notice etc. I haven't even informed my boss that I've applied for another position since this is something that came up out of the blue and I didn't want to miss out on the opportunity.

That is more or less what I am saying. A reference from your PhD supervisor is nice but the piece of paper says you did okay otherwise you would not have got it!!!

[chemgoddess]

If you already have another position (signed contract etc), I wouldn't worry about it too much. Letters of recommendation from PhD advisors will heavily weigh on the stature of post-doc you get or whether or not you will get an academic position. I'm confused though, you've applied for another PhD position? Or you've applied for a job, have it and plan to leave without your PhD?

Please explain more.

Nevermind, just read previous post. Still confused though.

EDIT: Just a note, generally in academics or sometimes in the sciences you do not have access to your letter of recommendation. It is usually requested by either you future advisor, future employer etc to be mailed to them directly.

	Quote:	PaddyG
	Thanks for the reply. So your saying I shouldn't bother with a reference from my PhD supervisor, as the actual certificate speaks for itself? And when you mean paid research, are you referring to my current job? Thing is, I'm still here and my actual contract isn't up for another year, though I can leave at any time with the necessary notice etc. I haven't even informed my boss that I've applied for another position since this is something that came up out of the blue and I didn't want to miss out on the opportunity.

[PaddyG]

	Quote:	chemgoddess
	If you already have another position (signed contract etc), I wouldn't worry about it too much. Letters of recommendation from PhD advisors will heavily weigh on the stature of post-doc you get or whether or not you will get an academic position. I'm confused though, you've applied for another PhD position? Or you've applied for a job, have it and plan to leave without your PhD? Please explain more. Nevermind, just read previous post. Still confused though.

I finished my PhD in 2003 and have since been working in a research group at the University of Fribourg. The position I have applied for is a Product Manager with a private company. I'm simply asking whether I should go ahead and ask my former PhD supervisor for a written reference or not.

	Quote:
	EDIT: Just a note, generally in academics or sometimes in the sciences you do not have access to your letter of recommendation. It is usually requested by either you future advisor, future employer etc to be mailed to them directly.

That's precisely my point, I didn't request a reference when I finished my PhD, since I was under the impression that recommendations in academic circles are made between previous and potential supervisors/employers, rather than via a written Arbeitszeugnis.

[chemgoddess]

Well, to keep things dandy with your current boss/advisor I think it would probably be in your best interest to inform him of your current plans so he doesn't hear it from someone else/feel jaded/slighted etc. That way when he does need to write a letter of recommendation for you, if your new employer asks for one, it will be glowing.

	Quote:	PaddyG
	I finished my PhD in 2003 and have since been working in a research group at the University of Fribourg. The position I have applied for is a Product Manager with a private company. I'm simply asking whether I should go ahead and ask my former PhD supervisor for a written reference or not. That's precisely my point, I didn't request a reference when I finished my PhD, since I was under the impression that recommendations in academic circles are made between previous and potential supervisors/employers, rather than via a written Arbeitszeugnis.

[PaddyG]

	Quote:	chemgoddess
	Well, to keep things dandy with your current boss/advisor I think it would probably be in your best interest to inform him of your current plans so he doesn't hear it from someone else/feel jaded/slighted etc. That way when he does need to write a letter of recommendation for you, if your new employer asks for one, it will be glowing.

That's the biggie for me at the moment. I wasn't actively looking for another job, but just came across this one by chance, so it's kind of a one-off. I enjoy working here and my research is extremely interesting. If I'm unsuccessful, I'll see out my projects and my remaining contract here. I was going to tell my boss after I made the application, but will probably wait and see if they invite me for an interview (as he's on vacation for 2 weeks anyway).

[Nathu]

MasterOfWitAndRepartee asked:

	Quote:
	Hi all I have requested a Zwischenzeugnis from my company. Is there a legal time limit in which they have to provide it (company is in Zurich)?

The question wasn't answered yet, so here's something to begin with: The law just states that you should be able to get a Zwischenzeugnis (interim report/interim reference) "anytime". But employers who delay it aren't unheard of.

This are your options:

• Ask your request directly to the boss-of-the-boss
• Ask your employer in writing for the reference and set a reasonable time limit (14 days).
• If both options fail you can take escalate the issue and go to labor court. But that's a different matter.

/ Answer is loosely based on this link.

[MasterOfWitAndRepartee]

	Quote:	Nathu
	Ask your employer in writing for the reference and set a reasonable time limit (14 days).

Thanks. So there is no normal time limit? That's bad. I might as well go right back to the beginning then, though to be honest I'm inclined to do it through a lawyer.

[MasterOfWitAndRepartee]

On which note: can anyone recommend an English speaking law practice that specialises in employment law, preferably in Zurich? TVM.

[zombiekiller]

Hi, could anyone help me to interpret my Zeugnis that I just received? I had a look at the translation tables in the other threads already, but cannot match the sentences with those in my Zeugnis (down to my basic German and a lack of experience with Swiss references). In principle it seems to say positive things, but since my internal annual reviews always stated that I "exceeded" the requirements, there seems to be a lack of superlatives.

Would this Zeugnis sell me well to the future employers, or am I just going to look mediocre? Any feedback will be most appreciated.

PS - I skipped the job description and intro parts.

"Wir kannten Zombiekiller als engagierte verantwortungsbewusste und zuverlässige Mitarbeiterin. Sie besass gute organisatorische Fähigkeiten, war flexibel und belastbar. Ihre Arbeitsweise was genau, selbstständig und effizient. Sie verfügte über breite Fachkenntnisse in ihrem Tätigkeitsbereich. Zombiekiller erbrachte stets gute Leistungen, die unseren Erwartungen und Anforderungen in jeder Hinsicht entsprachen.

Zombiekiller überzeugte durch angenehme Umgangsformen, ein sicheres und sympathisches Auftreten sowie ihre Hilfsbereitschaft. Kunden, Vorgesetzte und Mitarbeiter schätzten ihre freundliche und zuvorkommende Art.

Zombiekiller verlässt uns heute auf eigenen Wunsch. Wir danken ihr für die Mitarbeit und wünschen ihr für die Zukunft viel Erfolg und alles Gute."

[HollidayG]

	Quote:	zombiekiller
	Hi, could anyone help me to interpret my Zeugnis that I just received? I had a look at the translation tables in the other threads already, but cannot match the sentences with those in my Zeugnis (down to my basic German and a lack of experience with Swiss references). In principle it seems to say positive things, but since my internal annual reviews always stated that I "exceeded" the requirements, there seems to be a lack of superlatives. Would this Zeugnis sell me well to the future employers, or am I just going to look mediocre? Any feedback will be most appreciated. PS - I skipped the job description and intro parts. "Wir kannten Zombiekiller als engagierte verantwortungsbewusste und zuverlässige Mitarbeiterin. Sie besass gute organisatorische Fähigkeiten, war flexibel und belastbar. Ihre Arbeitsweise was genau, selbstständig und effizient. Sie verfügte über breite Fachkenntnisse in ihrem Tätigkeitsbereich. Zombiekiller erbrachte stets gute Leistungen, die unseren Erwartungen und Anforderungen in jeder Hinsicht entsprachen. Zombiekiller überzeugte durch angenehme Umgangsformen, ein sicheres und sympathisches Auftreten sowie ihre Hilfsbereitschaft. Kunden, Vorgesetzte und Mitarbeiter schätzten ihre freundliche und zuvorkommende Art. Zombiekiller verlässt uns heute auf eigenen Wunsch. Wir danken ihr für die Mitarbeit und wünschen ihr für die Zukunft viel Erfolg und alles Gute."

I think it sounds like a good Zeugnis. It says responsible, organisation skills, exact, efficient, helpful, good results.

I wouldn't think you have anything to worry about. The style and words
sound pretty similar to my recent Zeugnis. My wife is German, and she
said it would leave a good impression.

Cheers,
Grant

[Hsiang]

i came across this article some time ago, so the info might not be up to date, but should provide some reference what the different expressions mean.

[Rustygraben]

I concur with the assessment that this is a positive letter of reference. It should land you lucrative Zombie-killing jobs in the future.

[litespeed]

From my interpretation this is, as you suggest, a mediocre reference. Its not a bad reference,has some good elements, but I'd be wanting more.

	Quote:	Zombiekiller
	Zombiekiller erbrachte stets gute Leistungen, die unseren Erwartungen und Anforderungen in jeder Hinsicht entsprachen.

This is saying that, in all aspects, you simply did your job, nothing less but nothing more. The fact that the Zeugnis fails to mention that you had initiative or new ideas, tends to give the impression you simply clock on, work, clock off...nothing more. There is also no comment on your level of motivation of leadership /management skills (if applicable).

	Quote:	Zombiekiller
	Zombiekiller überzeugte durch angenehme Umgangsformen, ein sicheres und sympathisches Auftreten sowie ihre Hilfsbereitschaft. Kunden, Vorgesetzte und Mitarbeiter schätzten ihre freundliche und zuvorkommende Art.

Not really sure how to rate this...maybe someone else can help. but it lacks the clear positive adjectives that a Zeugnis needs.

	Quote:	Zombiekiller
	Zombiekiller verlässt uns heute auf eigenen Wunsch. Wir danken ihr für die Mitarbeit und wünschen ihr für die Zukunft viel Erfolg und alles Gute."

This says you resigned on your own. In a GOOD reference the firm would express their regret / disappointment at your departure (" mit Bedauern"). The fact that this is not mentioned is often taken by many HR people that this company was not upset to lose you, so you weren't valuable to them.

Unfortunately, even if you take the reference to court, you cannot force them to put regret /disappointment in the last paragraph.

Trust me I know, I've been there, done that, got the T-Shirt .

[tomcat]

I agree very much with litespeed. This is a middle-of-the road Zeugnis, not bad, but not great either.

"Zombiekiller erbrachte stets gute Leistungen, die unseren Erwartungen und Anforderungen in jeder Hinsicht entsprachen."
-> means that you met all expectations and requirements ... but you did not exceed them or show noteworthy initiative.

Zombiekiller überzeugte durch angenehme Umgangsformen, ein sicheres und sympathisches Auftreten sowie ihre Hilfsbereitschaft. Kunden, Vorgesetzte und Mitarbeiter schätzten ihre freundliche und zuvorkommende Art.
-> pretty positive. They are mentioning that not only the colleagues liked you but also the managers.

"Zombiekiller verlässt uns heute auf eigenen Wunsch. Wir danken ihr für die Mitarbeit und wünschen ihr für die Zukunft viel Erfolg und alles Gute."
-> They are not expressing their regret about you leaving.I have a document from my Swiss workplace that shows the different phrases that can be used, send me a PM and I will e-mail it.

[Rustygraben]

In light of the arguments presented above, I wish to revise my judgement. All things considered, it is indeed a rather run-of-the-mill report.

[litespeed]

	Quote:	HollidayG
	My wife is German, and she said it would leave a good impression.

On face value and stand alone, certainly. But the language of reference-writing in German has become something between the artistic and enigmatic. Simply put, you have to look at what is NOT WRITTEN, as much as what is written.

[Goldtop]

Agree with LiteSpeed and TomCat. This is not a brilliant testimonial. It is slightly above mediocre. The impression is that the job was done in a routine manner.