Reference letters [Zeugnis ] - Q&A thread

[HollidayG]

	Quote:	Dack Rambo
	Whats to stop an employee editing a reference in order to improve it?

I know people that photo shop these references to give them a shine.


These are official documents; however, and getting caught could have


legal consequences. However, I have never heard of anyone getting


caught or prosecuted, but I don't pay much attention either.

[KevNice]

My former employer gave me a "reference" letter containing the phrase:

"We were not fully satisfied with his performance".

Someone told me that this is illegal. Is it?

[HollidayG]

	Quote:	KevNice
	My former employer gave me a "reference" letter containing the phrase: "We were not fully satisfied with his performance". Someone told me that this is illegal. Is it?

Employers are not allowed to write directly anything bad.

How long were you there? I would send the reference letter

back with suggested changes. If you don't get a satisfactory

answer, get an attorney.

[KevNice]

	Quote:	HollidayG
	Employers are not allowed to write directly anything bad. How long were you there? I would send the reference letter back with suggested changes. If you don't get a satisfactory answer, get an attorney.

Only one year. It was a disaster, there was no support and no leadership.

[slammer]

	Quote:	HollidayG
	Employers are not allowed to write directly anything bad. How long were you there? I would send the reference letter back with suggested changes. If you don't get a satisfactory answer, get an attorney.

Hmm! Is it just me or does anybody else see the flaw in this? You can´t write that somebody is a total bell end? Seems to defeat the whole point of a Zeugniss.

[Dack Rambo]

	Quote:	HollidayG
	If you don't get a satisfactory answer, get an attorney.

If you are on RAV, get them to help you

[KevNice]

	Quote:	slammer
	Hmm! Is it just me or does anybody else see the flaw in this? You can´t write that somebody is a total bell end? Seems to defeat the whole point of a Zeugniss.

agree, but that is a separate argument.

"bell end" is also a judgment, and the fact that this judgment only flows in one direction is the principle injustice here.

Leaders may just as well be bell ends.

[Plau Deri]

	Quote:	slammer
	Hmm! Is it just me or does anybody else see the flaw in this? You can´t write that somebody is a total bell end? Seems to defeat the whole point of a Zeugniss.

They would just write: "We were satisfied with his performance" and the next HR girl would notice that the "fully" is missing, then connect the dots.

[user137]

bump up.

So it happened to me as well - I resigned myself and my dear director (who probably hates me for this) gave me the worst reference I have ever received in my career.

The letter was crafted by a tool by an HR person, so it satisfies the formal requirements, however, all adjectives and expressions are showing the absolute minimum ("good, met requirements, reliable employee, professional conduct"), and we all know how those translate.

I have an interim reference made 2 yrs ago by my then-manager with the same tool, and that one is almost all flying colors, lots of superlatives and some personal touch sentences as well. Some of the text is overlapping as the generator just spits it out in a certain order, so I could do a direct 1:1 comparison for these last 2 years.

I have a very good standing among peers and also colleagues, however their opinion is not asked when generating the reference.

Is there any way to object to the "non-coded" parts of the reference letter? I mean if my manager wants to suggest that I'm useless and these are his very own subjective factors, is there anything that one can do? Other than talking to him and trying to persuade him with facts, of course - which, given the circumstances, he might just totally disregard.

[HollidayG]

	Quote:	user137
	bump up. So it happened to me as well - I resigned myself and my dear director (who probably hates me for this) gave me the worst reference I have ever received in my career. The letter was crafted by a tool by an HR person, so it satisfies the formal requirements, however, all adjectives and expressions are showing the absolute minimum ("good, met requirements, reliable employee, professional conduct"), and we all know how those translate. I have an interim reference made 2 yrs ago by my then-manager with the same tool, and that one is almost all flying colors, lots of superlatives and some personal touch sentences as well. Some of the text is overlapping as the generator just spits it out in a certain order, so I could do a direct 1:1 comparison for these last 2 years. I have a very good standing among peers and also colleagues, however their opinion is not asked when generating the reference. Is there any way to object to the "non-coded" parts of the reference letter? I mean if my manager wants to suggest that I'm useless and these are his very own subjective factors, is there anything that one can do? Other than talking to him and trying to persuade him with facts, of course - which, given the circumstances, he might just totally disregard.

Fight it and threaten legal action. Use your interim reference letter as a starting point, if it is a good letter. Do you already have a new job?
I sent mine back 3 times with changes before they sent a new one.

If so, I would worry about it less and focus on the new job.

[user137]

	Quote:	HollidayG
	Fight it and threaten legal action. Use your interim reference letter as a starting point, if it is a good letter. Do you already have a new job? I sent mine back 3 times with changes before they sent a new one. If so, I would worry about it less and focus on the new job.

I have the next role lined up, yes. However, it's 2 years of my life and I don't want to have a black spot because someone doesn't know how to process a reference letter (my manager does it for the first time with me, I guess).

what legal action can I mention? if the is reference formally correct then it's all subjective isn't it?

[HollidayG]

Your reference letter should reflect your employee evaluations. If you received

an interim reference letter, use this as a basis.

If it does not, send it back. Merely, the threat of legal action can involve HR

changing the reference letter.

Stupid question, but do you speak German? Can you really judge whether it is a good letter or not. These can be really tricky.

[user137]

	Quote:	HollidayG
	Your reference letter should reflect your employee evaluations. If you received an interim reference letter, use this as a basis. If it does not, send it back. Merely, the threat of legal action can involve HR changing the reference letter. Stupid question, but do you speak German? Can you really judge whether it is a good letter or not. These can be really tricky.

Yes I speak German but the reference is in English.
In the end it turned out that it was my manager's first reference done by an automated tool and he meant no harm.

I changed a couple of wordings which all got accepted, so this one is closing on a good tone.

[Gramatyka356]

	Quote:	user137
	I have the next role lined up, yes. However, it's 2 years of my life and I don't want to have a black spot because someone doesn't know how to process a reference letter (my manager does it for the first time with me, I guess). what legal action can I mention? if the is reference formally correct then it's all subjective isn't it?

It's always subjective Just think of it for a moment. Why does the letter contain only management/HR opinion? Everyone knows it's one-sided.

Whilst we all want to get what we deserve sometimes it feels useless to fight with the BS as the time passes. I had a bad luck working under mediocre manager who was promoted too much. When his actions transformed the company into a gloomy place he finally got what he deserved, was eased out. Unfortunately he caused a lot of damage until the CEO finally realized whom he given the authority. My reference letter was overall good but was very subjective (towards you guess who) but I have contacted other former employees and obviously others were also left unsatisfied after rounds of ping-pong to correct the letter. In the end it seems that the "industry" perception of the letters from that particular company had changed. When the first thing you can find about the company are recent articles from the management discussing how to develop a company facing high employee turnover, the conclusion is bloody obvious

[azncandycow]

Hi all,

What are acceptable reasons for leaving in one of these letters? I come from the US and am not sure what would be ok to put and what would not given that there are 'coded words/phrases.' I left my previous jobs on friendly terms so my previous supervisors are more than happy to work with me in crafting something like an Arbeitzeugnis for my Swiss job search.

Would something like leaving to 'expand my professional horizons' or wanting to 'change my career direction' be interpreted in a bad way?

Thanks in advance!

[user137]

	Quote:	azncandycow
	Hi all, What are acceptable reasons for leaving in one of these letters? Thanks in advance!

You don’t need to give a reason for resignation in Switzerland.
The only thing it says in the end is whether the company has terminated you (and then it usually says why) or if you resigned on your own.

[HollidayG]

	Quote:	user137
	You don’t need to give a reason for resignation in Switzerland. The only thing it says in the end is whether the company has terminated you (and then it usually says why) or if you resigned on your own.

This is correct!

[robBob]

Best is if the company implies how very very satisfied they were with you. How hard it will be to replace you. And that they regret your leaving as such. But that your always welcome to come back and they wish you the best in the future.

[mezzaluna]

Dear all,
I have just got a refernece letteer from a company in Switzerland but I would like that someone helps me to analyse it in order to see of There is no secret code in that.
I will Put some sentencja, it was written in English. If someone can help me and analyse if it is a good reference letteer, I would be glad.
Many thanks !
1.”X.X posseses a good specialist knowledge that she uses confidently in her business”
2. „ She performed her tasks in good quality”
3. „ She communicated in polite and accomondating way”
4. „She left out company voluntary”
5. „ We thank jer for a good work and wish her all the Best personally and profesionally”

Many thanks for your input !

[roegner]

4 and 5 is good, not so sure about 2. Hopefully some reference letter/HR experts can help you further.