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-   -   Reference letters [Zeugnis ] - Q&A thread (https://www.englishforum.ch/employment/353-reference-letters-zeugnis-q-thread.html)

Richard 21.03.2006 21:02

Reference letters [Zeugnis ] - Q&A thread
 
Well I never really wanted to start this one myself but I thought it fair to those about to leave a company to get some pointers. Life in Switzerland is hard very damned hard without the proper content in a reference or Zeugnis as they call it.

Sorry I can only comment on the German side of Röstigraben. So expect some info here in the coming days. Also feel free to ask questions if you want.:cool:

Richard

Richard 22.03.2006 11:28

Re: Things to look for in a Zeugnis
 
Okay here is the first part of an epic.

The Structure of a Zeugnis.

At the start ie the first paragraph is not dangerous and always the same. It is Persönliche Angaben. This says

Mr Smith of *Country of origin or if Swiss heimatsort(town of origin)* has worked in our company since Jan 1st 2000 (optionally if you have not changed roles) as a chief bottle washer or whatever the job is.

Easy hey.

The second part of the Zeugnis relates to the role and the tasks associated with it. Here depending on the company policy they may make comments to your performance. But they should not it should be a role description.

In this role Mr Smith was responsible for:
  • Organising the collection of bottles
  • Ensuriong the bottles were cleaned according to company policy
  • Ensured that they were placed in the correct containers
  • Organised pick up of the bottles
  • Ordered new bottles
  • Placed the bottles on the shelf ready to be picked up by users.
A good Zeugnis should look like this.

The third section relates to how you performed the role along the lines of.

Mr. Smith performed the job with interest and to our (full - good) (fullest - best) satisfaction. He was able to correctly differentiate the different types of bottles and place them in the correct containers. etc.

The next part relates to your personal behaviour. ie His behaviour towards his fellow workers was always correct. To his managers he was usually understanding.

The final part of the Zeugnis relates to the relationship between the company and the person. This means something like this:

Mr Smith requested this reference due to a change of management. He is currently working in a continuing contract with us and we would like to take this opportunity to thank him for his efforts over the past five years. We wish much success in his career and personal liife.

Signed ...

So that is the end of the structure of a Zeugnis. In the next part we will look at each section with German words and I will translate these and point out what to watch for, what is good and of course what you don't want to see:eek:

incognito 07.03.2007 23:36

Re: Things to look for in a Zeugnis [work reference]
 
Hi Richard

Is there a time limit for objecting to a final reference?
I was mobbed out of my job last year and am now the proud owner of the shortest reference I have ever seen (8 lines or so). I havent read it for quite some time but it was mediocre and they were careful not to say anything malicious, not sure if there is hidden code in there though. My appraisals were very good yet they put me on a disciplinary period on some concocted rubbish prior to easing me out. I was lucky I didnt need the reference as I had a job lined up before I was asked to leave. HR were aware of what was going on and even helped to threaten me at one point. Didnt really want to revisit all this so should I just forget it (I had glowing references prior to this)?

litespeed 07.03.2007 23:54

Re: Things to look for in a Zeugnis [work reference]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Orla (Post 41319)
Is there a time limit for objecting to a final reference?

Yes there is, but it is quite significant, I believe at least 5 years.

Whether or not to pursue a "just" reference or not is up to you, but should be determined on a few factors, such as the industry, management level,etc. The most recent reference usually carries the most weight. The key from now on is this: every 12 months or so, when things are going smooth, diplomatically request a intermediate reference. When asking you might want to explain that you are requesting it not because you are shopping around for a new job, but simply to document your career progress and performance.

Richard 08.03.2007 00:35

Re: Things to look for in a Zeugnis [work reference]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Orla (Post 41319)
Hi Richard

Is there a time limit for objecting to a final reference?
I was mobbed out of my job last year and am now the proud owner of the shortest reference I have ever seen (8 lines or so). I havent read it for quite some time but it was mediocre and they were careful not to say anything malicious, not sure if there is hidden code in there though. My appraisals were very good yet they put me on a disciplinary period on some concocted rubbish prior to easing me out. I was lucky I didnt need the reference as I had a job lined up before I was asked to leave (though my bosses boss cut short my probation period and asked me to leave when they heard from insiders that I had the job offer and was awaiting the contract). HR were aware of what was going on and even helped to threaten me at one point. Didnt really want to revisit all this so should I just forget it (I had glowing references prior to this)?

Objection to a reference is usually through refusal to accept it. In answer to your question there is and for work related issues this is usually 5 years - but they are dealt with by the courts very quickly - but to be frank you are not going to get anywhere here even though you can pursue this particular point for much longer if you so wish would you believe 10 years - yes Mr Litespeed you read correctly. If you were "removed" or should that be relieved during the probation period then I would simply replace the work with contracting. The only way a company will know any better will be after the event when they get hold of your AHV card.

Bartholemew 08.03.2007 09:06

Re: Things to look for in a Zeugnis [work reference]
 
I have seen some Zeugnisse with a footnote the bottom saying something to the effect of, this reference letter hasn't been codified and the statements therein can be taken at face value.
I think this is to get away from the intricate wording system traditionally used in Swiss HR circles, where something ultimately very negative about an employee can be articulated to look innocuous - they call it "code."

litespeed 08.03.2007 11:54

Re: Things to look for in a Zeugnis [work reference]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bartholemew (Post 41350)
I have seen some Zeugnisse with a footnote the bottom saying something to the effect of, this reference letter hasn't been codified and the statements therein can be taken at face value.
I think this is to get away from the intricate wording system traditionally used in Swiss HR circles, where something ultimately very negative about an employee can be articulated to look innocuous - they call it "code."

Some write this but it means nothing, especially if the said reference contains common coded phrases. A "clean" reference would be written without the use of coded phrases, thus negating the need for the caveat. Remember, important is not the intended meaning, but the likely interpretation. Most HR personnel will ignore this caveat and interpret any coded phrases as the truth.

If you are going to object to a Zeugnis, the best way to do it is to submit your own version for signing.This is normally the point where your ex-employer shows their true colours.:eek:

IT_research_student 08.03.2007 13:40

Re: Things to look for in a Zeugnis [work reference]
 
My previous boss didn't reply me for my asking for a reference, although he had promised to wite one.

I don't know what I can deal with him.

gbn 21.03.2007 10:53

Re: Things to look for in a Zeugnis [work reference]
 
In what time frame should a Zeugnis be given?

And is there a law or article that states this?
To beat former employers around the head...

Cheers
gbn

Guest 21.03.2007 11:20

Re: Things to look for in a Zeugnis [work reference]
 
Some people (not me) are lucky enough to be able to draft their own Zeugnis and get it signed by their boss.

Is there a specimen anywhere that includes all the "this guy is stunning" and "I like his style" codes or phrases ?

dave


Quote:

Originally Posted by gbn (Post 44660)
In what time frame should a Zeugnis be given?

And is there a law or article that states this?
To beat former employers around the head...

Cheers
gbn


IT_research_student 21.03.2007 11:54

Re: Things to look for in a Zeugnis [work reference]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveA (Post 44670)
Some people (not me) are lucky enough to be able to draft their own Zeugnis and get it signed by their boss.

They are really lucky
RS

Lou 21.03.2007 11:59

Re: Things to look for in a Zeugnis [work reference]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveA (Post 44670)
Some people (not me) are lucky enough to be able to draft their own Zeugnis and get it signed by their boss.

dave

Sometimes it's a necessity, I'm the only IT person who works at the company where I am currently, no-one else has a clue what I do on a day to day basis. I'm writing the technical part of mine but the rest i.e. that I'm a wonderful person, a hard worker and keep everything running smoothly will be down to him ;).

Richard 22.03.2007 06:25

Re: Things to look for in a Zeugnis [work reference]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gbn (Post 44660)
In what time frame should a Zeugnis be given?

And is there a law or article that states this?
To beat former employers around the head...

Cheers
gbn

A reference must be provided on the last day of employment. The employee can request a missing Zeugnis for up to 10 years - ie thereafter, if you have not got one it is your fault. If you do not get one from your employer you can go to court to get one and also to agree wording if you are not happy.

All of this is covered in OR Art 330.

Guest 05.09.2007 15:35

Re: Things to look for in a Zeugnis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard (Post 2243)
Okay here is the first part of an epic.

The Structure of a Zeugnis.

At the start ie the first paragraph is not dangerous and always the same. It is Persönliche Angaben. This says

Mr Smith of *Country of origin or if Swiss heimatsort(town of origin)* has worked in our company since Jan 1st 2000 (optionally if you have not changed roles) as a chief bottle washer or whatever the job is.

Easy hey.

The second part of the Zeugnis relates to the role and the tasks associated with it. Here depending on the company policy they may make comments to your performance. But they should not it should be a role description.

In this role Mr Smith was responsible for:
  • Organising the collection of bottles
  • Ensuriong the bottles were cleaned according to company policy
  • Ensured that they were placed in the correct containers
  • Organised pick up of the bottles
  • Ordered new bottles
  • Placed the bottles on the shelf ready to be picked up by users.
A good Zeugnis should look like this.

The third section relates to how you performed the role along the lines of.

Mr. Smith performed the job with interest and to our (full - good) (fullest - best) satisfaction. He was able to correctly differentiate the different types of bottles and place them in the correct containers. etc.

The next part relates to your personal behaviour. ie His behaviour towards his fellow workers was always correct. To his managers he was usually understanding.

The final part of the Zeugnis relates to the relationship between the company and the person. This means something like this:

Mr Smith requested this reference due to a change of management. He is currently working in a continuing contract with us and we would like to take this opportunity to thank him for his efforts over the past five years. We wish much success in his career and personal liife.

Signed ...

So that is the end of the structure of a Zeugnis. In the next part we will look at each section with German words and I will translate these and point out what to watch for, what is good and of course what you don't want to see:eek:

Hello Richard,

I've just got my Zwischenzeugnis and, not being able to speak German, it would really be a great help for me (and other people here in the forum) to know the "coded" German words we should be aware of.
Any available list?

Thanks

Richard 06.09.2007 16:30

Re: Things to look for in a Zeugnis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny (Post 100893)
Hello Richard,

I've just got my Zwischenzeugnis and, not being able to speak German, it would really be a great help for me (and other people here in the forum) to know the "coded" German words we should be aware of.
Any available list?

Thanks

Hi johnny, no nothing to do with words. The secret is in sentences here some example. First bad then good... Oh I assume you are a male...

Durch seine recht zügige und exacte Arbeitsweise erbringt er eine zufriedenstellende Leistung. VERY negative sentence.
This is a coded sentence to mean you more or less met the requirements with respect to your working style and output


Wir haben ihn als einen Mitarbeiter kennengelernt, der, seine Aufgaben erfüllend, den Anforderungen gewachsen ist.
This is a coded sentence to mean you more or less met the requirements with respect to performance and stress.

Er verfügt über das erforderliche Fachwissen und setzt es erfolgversprechend ein.
This is a coded sentence to mean you more or less knew what you were doing.

Er arbeitet mit Fleiss und Freunde sehr exact, gründlich, gewissenhaft und sorgfältig.
This is a coded sentence to mean you actually worked conscienciously and with care - first non-negative sentence!

Er gibt gelegentlich eigene Anregungen, übernimmt die ihm übertragenen Aufgaben und führt sie aus.
This is a coded sentence to mean you showed more or less the expected initiative... negative...

Er ist pflichtbewusst, zuverlässig, vetrauenswürdig und regelmässig bereit, Verantwortung zu übernähmen.
This is also a coded sentence to say you would take responsibility but only if asked. negative...

Er is korrect und sicher in seinem Verhalten, hat gute Umgangsformen und ein naturliches und freies Auftreten.
This is a coded sentence to mean you were actually well behaved... not negative.

Aufgrund seiner Aufgeschlossenheit für alle Vorgesetzten, Kolleginnen und Kollegen ist er beliebt und geachtet.
This is a coded sentence to mean you were actually quite liked and respected... not negative.

This is not a terrible reference by the way just a standard bad one. Here is a standard good one:

Durch seine sehr zügige und exakte Arbeitsweise erbrachte er auch in Ausnahmesituationen eine vollst zufriedenstellende Leistung

Wir haben ihn als einen ausdauernden und außergewöhnlich belastbaren Mitarbeiter kennengelernt, der auch unter schwierigsten Arbeitsbedingungen alle Aufgaben bewältigte

Er besitzt ein hervorragendes, jederzeit verfügbares Fachwissen und löste durch seine sehr sichere Anwendung selbst schwierigste Aufgaben.

Er ist eine Anhaltenden Fleiß verband, mit unverkennbarer Freude an seiner Tätigkeit. Er arbeitete sehr genau und gründlich und äußerst gewissenhaft.

Er hatte immer wieder ausgezeichnete Ideen, gab wertvolle Anregungen.

Er ist äusserst pflichtbewusst, zuverlässig, vetrauenswürdig und immer bereit, Verantwortung zu übernähmen.

Er is korrect und sicher in seinem Verhalten, hat gute Umgangsformen und ein naturliches und freies Auftreten.

Aufgrund seiner Aufgeschlossenheit für alle Vorgesetzten, Kolleginnen und Kollegen ist er beliebt und geachtet

If you get a reference you should look at whether words like vollsten, äusserst, ausgezeichnet and sehr are used - if not then it is likely not a good reference.

Also be careful for double edged sentences such as:
Seine Verhalten zu Mitarbeitern und Vorgesetzten war vorbildlich.
Is that a mistake or coded! HR will choose which one based on the rest of the Zeugnis and if is is not clearly a mistake you will have no chance with that simple sentence in.

Er trug sehr zur Verbesserung des Betriebsklimas bei. He was a party animal.

It is sometimes difficult to really see what is what unless you have been "shown the way"

Clearer now?

Oh and if you don't like what is written in your Zeugnis quickly rewrite those sentences you don't like with something that cannot be interpreted falsely...

Guest 06.09.2007 19:25

Re: Things to look for in a Zeugnis [work reference]
 
Hello Richard,

thank you so much for your invaluable advices.
You have opened my eyes! I still can't believe, not only they laid me off, but they also wanted to put a grey spot (I'm not saying "black" because you said that the Zeugnis is not so terrible) on my working history, knowing perfectly how it is important, especially here in Switzerland!

I do love this country and the 95% of its inhabitants, but the behavior of the remaining 5% enervates me to the top :mad:

I will try to have the zeugnis changed, so it will also be an opportunity to show me their real intentions.

Thank you again, you are the best, man! I've tried to add a good score on your profile, but I guess I'm still to "newbie" to be allowed to do that.
But I won't forget, as soon as I'll be allowed.

Nathu 07.09.2007 11:35

Re: Things to look for in a Zeugnis [work reference]
 
Other translated examples can be found in this thread.

Music Mole 10.09.2007 10:12

Re: Things to look for in a Zeugnis [work reference]
 
Does anyone know if it is the norm for a contractor to receive a zeugnis when they leave a position? If so, would it be issued by the client company that they contracted at, or by the contracting company that placed them at the client?

thanks!

Nathu 10.09.2007 13:29

Re: Things to look for in a Zeugnis [work reference]
 
Not entirely sure if there are exceptions but the party who's required by law to fulfill your demand for the zeugnis is the employer who is your contract partner, thus the contracting company.

There is of course nothing prohibiting you getting a reference from the client company or citing a person from the client company in your future application papers, if the client company is cooperative.

Kittster 10.09.2007 14:16

Re: Things to look for in a Zeugnis [work reference]
 
If your boss doesn't give you a zeugnis, write your own draft and present him with it. Sometimes they are just too lazy and/or don't really know what everyone is doing and don't want to admit to this.

Richard's post is brilliant though, it is true that some people still do it like that, even though it's really unfair, especially to someone not born here.


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