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Old 16.11.2017, 03:12
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Re: Paternity Leave

I think paternity leave, or more to the point the lack thereof in Switzerland, is a serious issue. It was, when this thread was opened, ten years ago.

Now, ten or so years down the line, Dougal's Breakfast's employer (nor, indeed, the laws of this country) did not protect his children's rights, nor his, when his children were born. That's a sorry state of affairs, especially for a first-world country with high standards in many other areas of life.

Omtatsat revived this thread and, in my opinion, there is nothing remotely wrong with his having done so. Moreover, though as I see it many other aspects of life in Switzerland function remarkably well, I agree with Omtatsat that this particular topic is still one of the strangely shortsighted and sad gaps in the Swiss network of laws which, in other ways, do provide security.

Newcomers to Switzerland, to this forum, or to parenthood in Switzerland (after all, the lack of paternity leave negatively affects the mothers, too) might well have questions about this, especially if they have arrived from a country in which the laws were more equitable.
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  #42  
Old 16.11.2017, 07:43
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Re: Paternity Leave

Thread revived because of this news that they want to spend 8 Milliard on jets just in case Switzerland was invaded in 30 years time.And not one frank will they give out for paternal leave.

http://www.kidspot.com.au/birth/trim...818a2874de8a4d
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I think paternity leave, or more to the point the lack thereof in Switzerland, is a serious issue. It was, when this thread was opened, ten years ago.

Now, ten or so years down the line, Dougal's Breakfast's employer (nor, indeed, the laws of this country) did not protect his children's rights, nor his, when his children were born. That's a sorry state of affairs, especially for a first-world country with high standards in many other areas of life.

Omtatsat revived this thread and, in my opinion, there is nothing remotely wrong with his having done so. Moreover, though as I see it many other aspects of life in Switzerland function remarkably well, I agree with Omtatsat that this particular topic is still one of the strangely shortsighted and sad gaps in the Swiss network of laws which, in other ways, do provide security.

Newcomers to Switzerland, to this forum, or to parenthood in Switzerland (after all, the lack of paternity leave negatively affects the mothers, too) might well have questions about this, especially if they have arrived from a country in which the laws were more equitable.
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  #43  
Old 16.11.2017, 08:01
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Re: Paternity Leave

http://lenews.ch/2017/10/19/paternit...nds-executive/
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Old 16.11.2017, 08:51
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Re: Paternity Leave

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Now, ten or so years down the line, Dougal's Breakfast's employer (nor, indeed, the laws of this country) did not protect his children's rights, nor his, when his children were born. That's a sorry state of affairs, especially for a first-world country with high standards in many other areas of life.
On what planet do you live on where it is a "Right" for both parents to stay at home and play happy families while someone else foots the bill? Switzerland has a high quality of life exactly because it doesn't fritter away cash on ridiculous notions like this.

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Thread revived because of this news that they want to spend 8 Milliard on jets just in case Switzerland was invaded in 30 years time.And not one frank will they give out for paternal leave.
If you don't like it why don't you leave and go and live in Sweden instead. Burn your passport on route and say you're Syrian and I'm sure they'll let you stay. You'll soon learn that having a generous welfare system invites an invasion of a very different kind.
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  #45  
Old 16.11.2017, 09:26
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Re: Paternity Leave

"So bleibt die Schweiz halt weiterhin mit grossem Abstand das familienunfreundlichste Land in Europa, wenn es um Elternzeit oder Vaterschaftsurlaub geht. Und wir werden noch ewig den bemühten, aber treffenden Vergleich machen dürfen, dass man in der Schweiz zum Zügeln mehr Zeit bekommt als für die Geburt des eigenen Kindes."

Switzerland continues to be one of the most family-unfriendly countries in Europe..
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Old 16.11.2017, 09:58
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Re: Paternity Leave

It would be nice to keep the discussion civil

Switzerland is widely recognised as being behind the times for gender equality. Here`s just one source https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/progres...ality/42604504

Paternal and paternity leave are important for many reasons. Here are just two

1. Helping fathers bond with their children
2. creating a more equitable society - this one is mega important not just because it`s the right thing to do, but because it doesn`t make sense to give girls education and then not give them a way to work and pay it back to society.

It`s in society`s interests to have women in the workforce. One very important part of that is enabling fathers to take a bigger role in their children`s lives.

Check this out for what some other countries are doing
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegDat...)599323_EN.pdf

It`s not a question of funding both parents to stay at home indefinitely, but of funding some weeks of parental leave.
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  #47  
Old 16.11.2017, 10:15
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Re: Paternity Leave

"a generous welfare system invites an invasion of a very different kind"

And for that one needs to spend 8 milliarde on air defence.
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Old 16.11.2017, 10:32
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Re: Paternity Leave

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On what planet do you live on where it is a "Right" for both parents to stay at home and play happy families while someone else foots the bill? Switzerland has a high quality of life exactly because it doesn't fritter away cash on ridiculous notions like this.



.

I know it's pointless me talking about the past, so I won't. Nor will I make the mistake of saying those days were better, they weren't - but at least we were able to cope with a few difficulties (even though the shops were closed on Sundays).


But the children of our generation were obviously (from what one sees today) brought up in a more solid and healthier environment than is offered by today's fathers hanging around for six weeks per child.
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  #49  
Old 16.11.2017, 10:42
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Re: Paternity Leave

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But the children of our generation were obviously (from what one sees today) brought up in a more solid and healthier environment than is offered by today's fathers hanging around for six weeks per child.
What?

Seriously, WHAT?

This absurd generalisation that doesn't even try to find at least one pillar to stand on, is so... empty... it just left logic on the review mirror.

Some children from "my" generation got to grow up in fascist/ socialist repressive regimes who were very very far from being "healthier".

Some children from "my" generation had to face the major economical decline of the end 80's beginning 90's which devastated many world countries, from which they have never recovered, leading the sole bread winner out of a job, which lead their well off medium class family sink into borderline poverty, which is usually never healthy on anyone.

Smart phones and adult/children addiction to it is a modern problem which will eventually evolve and transform. There is already a movement from young people, usually put in the negative "millennial" tag to get away from that obsession.

Children from "my" generation had to deal with a whole shit load of terrorism - be it the IRA or the ETA. The only thing that changed is the face of the enemy.

Children of "my" generation, when born out of wedlock, were still put away from sight so no one would have to face the shame of a woman having had sex without being properly married. And not every guy was shotgunned into a wedding to make her "a proper woman".

Female children before mine were actually forbidden to attend university, and could look no further than 2 options: become mothers or old hags that are shunned from society.



Are there bad things going on right now? Sure. But let's not paint the past with nostalgic pink paint, because that is just pure nonsense. Gross generalisations are very dangerous and very pointless things.
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Old 16.11.2017, 10:46
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Re: Paternity Leave

Dear Mr Parmeli. Please don't fritter away cash on ridiculous notions like defending the homeland.


http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/news/sto...-tot--19571905
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Old 16.11.2017, 10:46
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Re: Paternity Leave

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It would be nice to keep the discussion civil

Switzerland is widely recognised as being behind the times for gender equality. Here`s just one source https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/progres...ality/42604504

Paternal and paternity leave are important for many reasons. Here are just two

1. Helping fathers bond with their children
2. creating a more equitable society - this one is mega important not just because it`s the right thing to do, but because it doesn`t make sense to give girls education and then not give them a way to work and pay it back to society.

It`s in society`s interests to have women in the workforce. One very important part of that is enabling fathers to take a bigger role in their children`s lives.

Check this out for what some other countries are doing
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegDat...)599323_EN.pdf

It`s not a question of funding both parents to stay at home indefinitely, but of funding some weeks of parental leave.
1. Bonding is a myth. The first few weeks of a baby's life consists of them shitting, sleeping and eating. Whilst a mother may feel a bond, a father can only attend to their needs. The bonding comes much later.
2. "Creating a more equitable society". The problem with this is that it flies in the face of nature. And you shouldn't argue with nature, because you won't win. We can play these role reversal games, but until we solve the problem of men being able to get pregnant, and men being able to breastfeed, the equitable society utopia will never be achieved.
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Old 16.11.2017, 10:49
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Re: Paternity Leave

Words from a caring father? Or not?
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1. Bonding is a myth. The first few weeks of a baby's life consists of them shitting, sleeping and eating. Whilst a mother may feel a bond, a father can only attend to their needs. The bonding comes much later.
2. "Creating a more equitable society". The problem with this is that it flies in the face of nature. And you shouldn't argue with nature, because you won't win. We can play these role reversal games, but until we solve the problem of men being able to get pregnant, and men being able to breastfeed, the equitable society utopia will never be achieved.
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Old 16.11.2017, 10:54
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Re: Paternity Leave

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1. Bonding is a myth. The first few weeks of a baby's life consists of them shitting, sleeping and eating. Whilst a mother may feel a bond, a father can only attend to their needs. The bonding comes much later.
2. "Creating a more equitable society". The problem with this is that it flies in the face of nature. And you shouldn't argue with nature, because you won't win. We can play these role reversal games, but until we solve the problem of men being able to get pregnant, and men being able to breastfeed, the equitable society utopia will never be achieved.
Ah well, there you go. If you don`t believe in an equitable society, there`s no point in me trying to convince you of the benefits of parental leave for men. And you might be surprised by how much bonding happens over fulfilling children`s basic needs.
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Old 16.11.2017, 11:34
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Re: Paternity Leave

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The first time round I got one day, and still had to go in the following Saturday to make up for it.

The second time round, my boss very considerately fired me so it is no longer an issue.

Switzerland.
A good friend of mine took a day off for his mother's funeral and his boss still had the gall to phone him to ask where a certain document was.

The problem is not the law. The problem is assh@les.

EDIT: the law is a problem as well, but not the only problem.
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Old 16.11.2017, 11:49
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Re: Paternity Leave

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But the children of our generation were obviously (from what one sees today) brought up in a more solid and healthier environment than is offered by today's fathers hanging around for six weeks per child.
What utter nonsense.


As for the paternity leave discussion in general - Switzerland had no mandatory maternity leave until a lousy 15 years ago. And may I remind some people here that many developed countries still don't have a legally mandated maternity leave at all.

To expect paternity leave to be mandatory by law within less than 20 years after implementing a maternity leave is unrealistic. Not just in Switzerland btw. Give it another decade or so.

I'm certainly pro paternity leave, though am leaning towards granting 3-4 weeks or so. Of course there's no chance it will be anywhere close to 3 months and right it shouldn't. Maternity leave isn't just about "bonding time", but because the mother went through and is still going through a physically exhausting experience whereas the father is not. It's not the same and will never be the same. Equality does not mean being the same.

More than a few weeks off early on, I'd like to see more flexibility in employment conditions to be able to reconcile family and professional life if and where desired. A few weeks for the father right after the birth of the child are nice, if only for him to be able to better support the mother too. But let's be real, that's not the most important aspect in the 20+ years that follow.

Btw, it's hardly always perfect elsewhere, especially also on the other end of the spectrum. Some regulations on parental leave in general in other countries may be desirable on the individual level, but are over-the-top economically and, partly, socially.

Last edited by Samaire13; 16.11.2017 at 12:14.
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Old 16.11.2017, 11:52
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Re: Paternity Leave

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1. Bonding is a myth. The first few weeks of a baby's life consists of them shitting, sleeping and eating. Whilst a mother may feel a bond, a father can only attend to their needs. The bonding comes much later.
Err... the "eating" bit involves the mother about every 2-3 hours at the beginning. Assuming your rather bonkers theory about bonding being a myth is correct, you can't get around the feeding bit unless you are suggesting all babies are either formula fed or employ a wet nurse.
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Old 16.11.2017, 12:34
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Re: Paternity Leave

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What utter nonsense.
Actually, Busby has a point.



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Ah well, there you go. If you don`t believe in an equitable society, there`s no point in me trying to convince you of the benefits of parental leave for men. And you might be surprised by how much bonding happens over fulfilling children`s basic needs.
I believe in an equitable society, however I also see the realities of nature. We're homo sapiens, and it's hard wired into our make up that men are providers and women care for children. It has been this way since the dawn of time, and it's worked too. Were we emperor penguins the roles would be somewhat reversed.

That's not to say that women can't be successful and have careers, women should absolutely be given equal opportunities in education and the work place. However the reality is that only women can get pregnant and have children, and let's remember, at the end having children is a choice.
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Old 16.11.2017, 12:42
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Re: Paternity Leave

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I believe in an equitable society, however I also see the realities of nature. We're homo sapiens, and it's hard wired into our make up that men are providers and women care for children. It has been this way since the dawn of time, and it's worked too. Were we emperor penguins the roles would be somewhat reversed.

That's not to say that women can't be successful and have careers, women should absolutely be given equal opportunities in education and the work place. However the reality is that only women can get pregnant and have children, and let's remember, at the end having children is a choice.
Doesn't stack up, I'm afraid.

We can't be "hard wired" when it suits one argument and not another. Humans are "hard wired" to reproduce no matter what. All species are similar in that, in order that they don't die out and have sufficient numbers to keep them safe and the gene pool healthy.

How can you assume that the hard wiring to reproduce suddenly became "a choice" when the hard wiring for the man to go out with a club or bow and arrow somehow remains unchanged?
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Old 16.11.2017, 12:47
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Re: Paternity Leave

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let's remember, at the end having children is a choice.
Not always.
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Old 16.11.2017, 12:54
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Re: Paternity Leave

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Not always.
In "our" world (as opposed to disastrous situations elsewhere): when is it not? I'd say in 99% of all cases, it is indeed a choice, a decision.


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Actually, Busby has a point.
Please. Not this dude again. Or that all-millennials-are-oh-so-special-blabla in general...
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