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Old 16.11.2017, 13:11
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Re: Paternity Leave

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when is it not? I'd say in 99% of all cases, it is indeed a choice, a decision.
The decision to have sex does not equal the decision to have children. If you are talking about the choice to abstinence, then I will point to the countless books on biology and psychology that explain better than I could ever do how that is an absurd solution.

Access to contraceptives is not always possible. Contraceptives are not 100% reliable. There are still quite a few people that still believe in incorrect information about different contraceptive methods, being surprised that a pregnancy resulted.

Some women have no choice in having or not having sex. Some don't even have a choice on when they get to become sexually active. Some women do not have a choice in whether or not they are allowed to wear contraceptives.

Some women do not get the choice to terminate a pregnancy.

So, no, that 99% is absolute poppycock.
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  #62  
Old 16.11.2017, 13:17
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Re: Paternity Leave

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Actually, Busby has a point.





I believe in an equitable society, however I also see the realities of nature. We're homo sapiens, and it's hard wired into our make up that men are providers and women care for children. It has been this way since the dawn of time, and it's worked too. Were we emperor penguins the roles would be somewhat reversed.

That's not to say that women can't be successful and have careers, women should absolutely be given equal opportunities in education and the work place. However the reality is that only women can get pregnant and have children, and let's remember, at the end having children is a choice.
What a laugh. Tell that to the various tribes and groups where the women do the providing and the men sit around all day. And who do you think does the hunting in a pride of lions? The females. We're no more hot wired for this "model" than any other. And it's a fairly recent model as well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breadwinner_model
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  #63  
Old 16.11.2017, 13:18
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Re: Paternity Leave

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The decision to have sex does not equal the decision to have children. If you are talking about the choice to abstinence, then I will point to the countless books on biology and psychology that explain better than I could ever do how that is an absurd solution.

Access to contraceptives is not always possible. Contraceptives are not 100% reliable. There are still quite a few people that still believe in incorrect information about different contraceptive methods, being surprised that a pregnancy resulted.

Some women have no choice in having or not having sex. Some don't even have a choice on when they get to become sexually active. Some women do not have a choice in whether or not they are allowed to wear contraceptives.

Some women do not get the choice to terminate a pregnancy.

So, no, that 99% is absolute poppycock.
I very much agree this is true for the world overall. Even for the majority of the world. The large majority.

But we're not talking about that here and this is about paternity leave in Switzerland and comparable countries. And for this part of the world, I disagree with you. There is a difference between not wanting to do something and not being allowed to do it.

I don't want to derail the thread though.
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  #64  
Old 16.11.2017, 14:07
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Re: Paternity Leave

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What a laugh. Tell that to the various tribes and groups where the women do the providing and the men sit around all day. And who do you think does the hunting in a pride of lions? The females. We're no more hot wired for this "model" than any other. And it's a fairly recent model as well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breadwinner_model
So the alternative to the breadwinner model is that either you send your children to work, or you have to pay more taxes in order to care for other people's kids. Looks like Switzerland has chosen to stick with the right option.
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Old 16.11.2017, 14:21
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Re: Paternity Leave

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What?

Seriously, WHAT?




Children from "my" generation had to deal with a whole shit load of terrorism - be it the IRA or the ETA.





Are there bad things going on right now? Sure. But let's not paint the past with nostalgic pink paint, because that is just pure nonsense. Gross generalisations are very dangerous and very pointless things.



Children from my generation had to deal with bombs falling into the streets, blood running in the gutters and seeing a world constantly in flames. We kept our feet on the floor after it was all finished, and all of my pals, and many of them are still alive and kicking made good lives out of a bad start.




I'm not painting the past pink - I said that things are better now. But as far as 'gross generalisations' go - is there any doubt about many children today being fat; about mollycoddling; taken to and from school in cars instead of walking or cycling through the rain; using drugs and alcohol; autistic children - a modern 'trend'; children not knowing where milk comes from; the Swiss military complaining that many of the youngsters aren't fit enough to be conscripted and so on and so on. I don't want to submit a list.


But thankfully, my children, (as those of other aware parents), born in the 1960s see what is happening and are taking great care that their children, my grandchildren, develop with the ability to observe and be aware of the poor deal society is offering at the moment.
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  #66  
Old 16.11.2017, 14:26
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Re: Paternity Leave

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So the alternative to the breadwinner model is that either you send your children to work, or you have to pay more taxes in order to care for other people's kids. Looks like Switzerland has chosen to stick with the right option.
No, an alternative would be whichever parent is best (or feels best) suited to care for the very young children while the other parent works. Or both parents can go to part time working so one or the other can be with the children. Unfortunately, both require a major rethinking of what we call "family life" and obviously employers would be pretty pissed off as well to have an employer unavailable for 3-4 years cause they're looking after their kids full time or only available on a part time basis.
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Old 16.11.2017, 14:35
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Re: Paternity Leave

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I'm not painting the past pink - I said that things are better now. But as far as 'gross generalisations' go - is there any doubt about many children today being fat; about mollycoddling; taken to and from school in cars instead of walking or cycling through the rain; using drugs and alcohol; autistic children - a modern 'trend'; children not knowing where milk comes from; the Swiss military complaining that many of the youngsters aren't fit enough to be conscripted and so on and so on. I don't want to submit a list.
Calling autism a "modern trend" is a bit short sighted, isn't it? It's likely there aren't any more or fewer cases than in the past, it's just that they are being flagged and treated more effectively. In your childhood an autistic child was probably labelled a "ne'er do well" and caned every time he or she stepped out of line. Maybe they would blame the parents or a bump on the head or him living too close to the glue factory.

It's a bit like saying there's a huge increase in illnesses such as cancer in modern times because generations ago cancer sufferers just died of something loosely labelled as "the fever" or "the agony" and was lumped in with other undiagnosed conditions.
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Old 16.11.2017, 14:36
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Re: Paternity Leave

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Children from my generation had to deal with bombs falling into the streets, blood running in the gutters and seeing a world constantly in flames. We kept our feet on the floor after it was all finished, and all of my pals, and many of them are still alive and kicking made good lives out of a bad start.




I'm not painting the past pink - I said that things are better now. But as far as 'gross generalisations' go - is there any doubt about many children today being fat; about mollycoddling; taken to and from school in cars instead of walking or cycling through the rain; using drugs and alcohol; autistic children - a modern 'trend'; children not knowing where milk comes from; the Swiss military complaining that many of the youngsters aren't fit enough to be conscripted and so on and so on. I don't want to submit a list.


But thankfully, my children, (as those of other aware parents), born in the 1960s see what is happening and are taking great care that their children, my grandchildren, develop with the ability to observe and be aware of the poor deal society is offering at the moment.
Sorry, pal. You lost your argument when you called autism "a trend".
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Old 16.11.2017, 14:47
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Re: Paternity Leave

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No, an alternative would be whichever parent is best (or feels best) suited to care for the very young children while the other parent works. Or both parents can go to part time working so one or the other can be with the children. Unfortunately, both require a major rethinking of what we call "family life" and obviously employers would be pretty pissed off as well to have an employer unavailable for 3-4 years cause they're looking after their kids full time or only available on a part time basis.
Haven't you just described the breadwinner model though? I happen to agree with it. If it works out better for a family to have the mother as the main source of income or a mixture of both parents working than so be it. The only exception being that I believe it important that the mother is around for very young babies.

Sacrifices need to be made when you have kids, so long as you're not asking others to pick up the tab then you should do whatever works out best for you.
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Old 16.11.2017, 14:49
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Re: Paternity Leave

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Haven't you just described the breadwinner model though? I happen to agree with it. If it works out better for a family to have the mother as the main source of income or a mixture of both parents working than so be it. The only exception being that I believe it important that the mother is around for very young babies.

Sacrifices need to be made when you have kids, so long as you're not asking others to pick up the tab then you should do whatever works out best for you.
I hope you don't have children
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Old 16.11.2017, 15:02
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Re: Paternity Leave

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I hope you don't have children
Sure do. Can you send me some money so I can stay at home and bond with them? I'll PM you my address.
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Old 16.11.2017, 15:09
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Re: Paternity Leave

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Sure do. Can you send me some money so I can stay at home and bond with them? I'll PM you my address.
We can lend you the money so your offspring can pay us back via taxes when they are old enough to hold down a job.
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Old 16.11.2017, 15:29
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Re: Paternity Leave

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We can lend you the money so your offspring can pay us back via taxes when they are old enough to hold down a job.
Translation: We can enslave your children in debt to make life easier for parents now.

And there I was thinking we'd moved on from bonded labour.
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Old 16.11.2017, 15:39
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Re: Paternity Leave

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We can lend you the money so your offspring can pay us back via taxes when they are old enough to hold down a job.
Isn't that exactly what the government is doing already?

In old fashioned talk the government provided things like education. It was a service to the citizen. The government expected nothing in return. Nowadays they speak of investing in education. An investment is something you do with the expectation of recovering your money and some more. Hence it is OK to do so on borrowed money, as long as the profit exceeds the costs of borrowing.

So seeing education has become a business ventuire whose direct purpose is to raise money to pay off banks, why are we surprised it is so one-sided and rubbish?
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Old 16.11.2017, 15:40
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Re: Paternity Leave

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My own interpretation: We can enslave your children in debt to make life easier for parents now.
ftfy...

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Isn't that exactly what the government is doing already?
Well, yes, but it seems it was lost on Loz.

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In old fashioned talk the government provided things like education. It was a service to the citizen. The government expected nothing in return.
Isn't that a bit romantically naive?

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So seeing education has become a business ventuire whose direct purpose is to raise money to pay off banks, why are we surprised it is so one-sided and rubbish?
...and that's a bit unquantifyably hysterical?
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Old 16.11.2017, 15:47
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Re: Paternity Leave

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1. Bonding is a myth. The first few weeks of a baby's life consists of them shitting, sleeping and eating. Whilst a mother may feel a bond, a father can only attend to their needs. The bonding comes much later.
2. "Creating a more equitable society". The problem with this is that it flies in the face of nature. And you shouldn't argue with nature, because you won't win. We can play these role reversal games, but until we solve the problem of men being able to get pregnant, and men being able to breastfeed, the equitable society utopia will never be achieved.
I feel so blessed to have never procreated with someone who thinks like you do.
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Old 16.11.2017, 15:57
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Re: Paternity Leave

All getting a bit personal, isn't it?

As a taxpayer, Loz1983 is perfectly entitled to his opinion whether you would like to procreate with him or not.
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  #78  
Old 16.11.2017, 15:59
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Re: Paternity Leave

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ftfy...
Isn't that a bit romantically naive?
Is it naive to expect a government to serve the people it is there to serve?

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...and that's a bit unquantifyably hysterical?
It's absolutely hysterical if you're in big finanace.

Not so much if you're the hamster in the wheel.
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Old 16.11.2017, 16:42
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Re: Paternity Leave

Getting back to the idea of paternity leave, it's something that's always surprised me that men would want. I'd always have thought that the last thing a new father would want would be to be stuck at home with the baby, and would probably be more than happy to work longer hours to avoid it.

You can tell I'm not a parent, can't you?
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Old 16.11.2017, 16:44
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Re: Paternity Leave

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Getting back to the idea of paternity leave, it's something that's always surprised me that men would want. I'd always have thought that the last thing a new father would want would be to be stuck at home with the baby, and would probably be more than happy to work longer hours to avoid it.

You can tell I'm not a parent, can't you?
Yeah, but it's more socially acceptable to bluster your objections to the tax implications...
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