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  #81  
Old 16.11.2017, 16:53
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Re: Paternity Leave

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Getting back to the idea of paternity leave, it's something that's always surprised me that men would want. I'd always have thought that the last thing a new father would want would be to be stuck at home with the baby, and would probably be more than happy to work longer hours to avoid it.

You can tell I'm not a parent, can't you?
For many reasons we made the decision after 2 months that I would be a stay at home dad, and I'm loving it. And being stuck at home is a choice, it is really not that hard to bring a baby along and enjoy a nice bratwurst and a beer with a friend on top of Eutliberg, only difference is that instead of the downhill mtb path I now walk down.

Also in the beginning when we both were at home I'd be the one staying up till my wife woke up naturally around 7 or 8 in the morning, since due to the kid being almost 5KG at birth and her only being 1.57 gave so much complications to her body that she really needed the rest and by doing it like this would not be disturbed by me getting in and out of bed a bunch of times during the night, and thus would need longer recovery due to the lack of proper sleep.
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  #82  
Old 16.11.2017, 16:55
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Re: Paternity Leave

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You can tell I'm not a parent, can't you?
It's actually quite wonderful to see new fathers woo over their babies.

If you are one of us poor expats, away from family, it can be very very tough to adapt to the new situation, so having your partner helping you out is heaven sent. It's not always about bonding with the child, it's also the bonding as a new family concept (which is not always an easy transition).

I think every father in my friend's group did all they could to get free time to enjoy the new sprout. But, yes, there is also a feeling of joy when you go back to work (I felt it when my maternity leave was over).

The whole "you get pregnant, you pop a kid, you become a parent" is way more complicated and nuanced than one would think...
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  #83  
Old 16.11.2017, 16:56
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Re: Paternity Leave

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No, an alternative would be whichever parent is best (or feels best) suited to care for the very young children while the other parent works. Or both parents can go to part time working so one or the other can be with the children.
Yes.

I've just mentally gone through a list of about 20 families I know, some closely, others in the neighbourhood or friends of friends or other social and professional contexts, in Switzerland, with children aged under 18.

I found only two families in which one parent works full-time as the breadwinner and the other is a full-time stay-at-home parent. In both cases the breadwinner father is far more qualified than his wife and she could never earn as much as he does.

All the other parents who came to mind, whether they are single parents or in a partnership with the children's other parent, or in a new patchwork constellation, work part-time in order that they can be active in caring for the children part-time, too.

Their professions are across the full range: unqualified, unemployed, and/or ill, through partially skilled, all the levels of education up to doctorates, top level executives and the self-employed.

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Unfortunately, both require a major rethinking of what we call "family life" and obviously employers would be pretty pissed off as well to have an employer unavailable for 3-4 years cause they're looking after their kids full time or only available on a part time basis.
I think that this "major rethinking" has already taken place. Employers seem to be dealing with it, since it is what thesê parents are already doing, in practice.

Admittedly, I don't know anyone pursuing a sandwich model of "3 to 4 years" employed, then "3 to 4 years" at home with the children, then back to the employer for a few years, etc. I agree that that could be annoying for an employer.
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Old 16.11.2017, 20:55
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Re: Paternity Leave

Moderators - can we have “ZZZZzzzz....” button?

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1. Bonding is a myth. The first few weeks of a baby's life consists of them shitting, sleeping and eating. Whilst a mother may feel a bond, a father can only attend to their needs. The bonding comes much later.
2. "Creating a more equitable society". The problem with this is that it flies in the face of nature. And you shouldn't argue with nature, because you won't win. We can play these role reversal games, but until we solve the problem of men being able to get pregnant, and men being able to breastfeed, the equitable society utopia will never be achieved.
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  #85  
Old 16.11.2017, 22:57
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Re: Paternity Leave

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Moderators - can we have “ZZZZzzzz....” button?
Lol
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Old 16.11.2017, 23:16
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Re: Paternity Leave

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All the other parents who came to mind, whether they are single parents or in a partnership with the children's other parent, or in a new patchwork constellation, work part-time in order that they can be active in caring for the children part-time, too.
Having been the main breadwinner in a two parent household, and the only breadwinner in a single-parent household, part-time work was never considered.

I always did the Swiss thing and walked home for lunch, however.

Tom
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Old 17.11.2017, 01:26
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Re: Paternity Leave

I know of plenty of couples where both adults are equally qualified, but due to differences in their fields there is huge disparity in their earning potential.

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Yes.

I've just mentally gone through a list of about 20 families I know, some closely, others in the neighbourhood or friends of friends or other social and professional contexts, in Switzerland, with children aged under 18.

I found only two families in which one parent works full-time as the breadwinner and the other is a full-time stay-at-home parent. In both cases the breadwinner father is far more qualified than his wife and she could never earn as much as he does.

All the other parents who came to mind, whether they are single parents or in a partnership with the children's other parent, or in a new patchwork constellation, work part-time in order that they can be active in caring for the children part-time, too.

Their professions are across the full range: unqualified, unemployed, and/or ill, through partially skilled, all the levels of education up to doctorates, top level executives and the self-employed.



I think that this "major rethinking" has already taken place. Employers seem to be dealing with it, since it is what thesê parents are already doing, in practice.

Admittedly, I don't know anyone pursuing a sandwich model of "3 to 4 years" employed, then "3 to 4 years" at home with the children, then back to the employer for a few years, etc. I agree that that could be annoying for an employer.
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  #88  
Old 17.11.2017, 09:32
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Re: Paternity Leave

I think it is good when the mother can be at home full time for the first couple of years before the children go to the Kindergarden.And later part time for the mother. We did that.

But I always got the bus home at lunch time as it was too far to walk
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Old 17.11.2017, 10:23
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Re: Paternity Leave

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It's actually quite wonderful to see new fathers woo over their babies.
I've heard many men comment that they too "should get a vacation" since the mother gets one too... Because sure, that's the same...

So not sure it's always the wooing. But I sure hope these men - the vacation ones - are the exception...
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Old 17.11.2017, 10:26
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Re: Paternity Leave

It's not a vacation! It's paternal leave. Got that straight!
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I've heard many men comment that they too "should get a vacation" since the mother gets one too... Because sure, that's the same...

So not sure it's always the wooing. But I sure hope these men - the vacation ones - are the exception...
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Old 17.11.2017, 10:35
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Re: Paternity Leave

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It's not a vacation! It's paternal leave. Got that straight!
Well I know, they clearly don't. I don't think they understand the concept of "maternity leave" either. A vacation. Funny...
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Old 17.11.2017, 10:42
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Re: Paternity Leave

Yes they are idiots sitting in Bern
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Well I know, they clearly don't. I don't think they understand the concept of "maternity leave" either. A vacation. Funny...
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Old 17.11.2017, 11:08
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Re: Paternity Leave

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It's not a vacation! It's paternal leave. Got that straight!
I'm sure that this is just a linguistic/semantic issue. Quite apart from the initial translation from a non-native English speaker, there are several terms which, used in different contexts, can have quite different meanings. Specifically I'm thinking of the various ways in which 'holiday' and 'vacation' are used in British and American English. In the UK holiday means either taking a trip (c/w US 'vacation') OR entitled time off work, in the US it's more commonly used for statutory non-work days, in the UK usually referred to as 'Bank' holidays.

Then 'leave', often used in the armed services for any time off, but in industry as a specific type, e.g. annual, maternity, unpaid or sick leave

So it's a semantic minefield out there, and best not to get hung up on specific inferred meanings.
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Old 17.11.2017, 12:49
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Re: Paternity Leave

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Well I know, they clearly don't. I don't think they understand the concept of "maternity leave" either. A vacation. Funny...
Keep in mind that many words, perhaps even the majority, have more than one meaning, especially in different contexts.
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Old 17.11.2017, 14:00
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Re: Paternity Leave

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Keep in mind that many words, perhaps even the majority, have more than one meaning, especially in different contexts.
No I know, but here's the logic in Swiss German - again, not my words:
Maternity leave = Urlaub
Urlaub in Swiss German = Ferien
Ferien = vacation

Ergo: maternity leave = vacation.

I've heard (and read) it a few times, statements along the lines of "well if the mother gets to go on a paid vacation (Ferien) for 3.5 months, so should the father". So apparently looking after a new baby is equal to sitting on the beach, cocktail in hand - in the heads of some people.

Again, anecdotal, it's certainly not the majority that thinks this way.
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Old 17.11.2017, 14:31
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Re: Paternity Leave

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No I know, but here's the logic in Swiss German - again, not my words:
Maternity leave = Urlaub
Urlaub in Swiss German = Ferien
Ferien = vacation

Ergo: maternity leave = vacation.

I've heard (and read) it a few times, statements along the lines of "well if the mother gets to go on a paid vacation (Ferien) for 3.5 months, so should the father". So apparently looking after a new baby is equal to sitting on the beach, cocktail in hand - in the heads of some people.

Again, anecdotal, it's certainly not the majority that thinks this way.
I think that’s a bit unfair. The more typical view for people who think that way is “why should the company pay for someone who’s not at work”, not “someone is getting paid to sit on a beach for 3.5 months”.

/American hat on
But anyway, it’s all vacation. If you’re getting paid and not working, it’s vacation.
/American hat off
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Old 17.11.2017, 14:32
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Re: Paternity Leave

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No I know, but here's the logic in Swiss German - again, not my words:
Maternity leave = Urlaub
Urlaub in Swiss German = Ferien
Ferien = vacation

Ergo: maternity leave = vacation.
Not your words, but your conclusion from them. And it just underlines that it really is, as already stated, just a question of semantics. Urlaub, for instance, even to my b2 German, refers to being away, and is clearly not the same as Ferien, which on its own refers more to a celebration (time) rather than specifically a vacation anyway.

So it's you who's chosing specific meanings of the words and inferring a sense that's not implied or intended by the original.
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Old 17.11.2017, 14:47
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Re: Paternity Leave

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No I know, but here's the logic in Swiss German - again, not my words:
Maternity leave = Urlaub
Urlaub in Swiss German = Ferien
Ferien = vacation

Ergo: maternity leave = vacation.

I've heard (and read) it a few times, statements along the lines of "well if the mother gets to go on a paid vacation (Ferien) for 3.5 months, so should the father". So apparently looking after a new baby is equal to sitting on the beach, cocktail in hand - in the heads of some people.

Again, anecdotal, it's certainly not the majority that thinks this way.
Those people are just dumb, Urlaub has different meanings, and one of them is Leave and that is how the word is ment when used for maternity/paternity leave, and that has nothing to do with holiday.

The Dutch have the same logic in the language for this as the Germans, and really I've only come across dumb people insisting on giving the word the wrong meaning.

You make the fault here of referring to Ferien, while when it comes to a labour relationship the word means that there is an allowance/permission to not having to work during a certain period. Ferien is another totally different meaning of the word.
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Old 17.11.2017, 14:57
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Re: Paternity Leave

Our of curiosity, what reference do they use for chaps on military "leave"? Not sure I've ever heard it referred to as "urlaub". Or maybe I'm mistaken?
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Old 17.11.2017, 15:10
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Re: Paternity Leave

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Our of curiosity, what reference do they use for chaps on military "leave"? Not sure I've ever heard it referred to as "urlaub". Or maybe I'm mistaken?
Urlaub would be the correct term.

Referring to the permission to be absent from the unit for a specific amount of time.

Wochenendurlaub is the normal word for soldiers going home during the weekend. (I would not even know what other word to use tbh)
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