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  #21  
Old 08.02.2020, 21:31
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Re: Termination vs resignation or cancellation agreement in Zeugnis

To start with, when applying for a job, (especially if the employer had not actually advertised anything and the applicant is just trying it out, so called "cold" application) it is usual for the applicant to send only
  • a relevant but short covering letter
  • their cv.
Much less likely more than that, though perhaps
  • certificates/qualifications, but only those specifically and recently relevant to the job.
  • Often no references at that point.

However, when responding to a job ad, the applicant should take care to supply everything that the ad specified.

If the new pontential employer specifically requests (in the ad, or later) a "full" application, then this includes
  • motivating covering letter (always freshly tailor-made to fit this particular potential job)
  • current cv (possibly slightly re-written to shift the emphasis, honestly, of course, onto those aspects which are relevant for this potential post, and for this new company)
  • relevant certificates of qualifications
  • references

Any prospective employer can request, in an ad, or later on, as little or as much documentation as they choose, and when they choose.

If your husband has taken care to find someone else in the company (or who used to work there) who gives him a reference desciribing what he did and that it was good, then this is probably a better document to submit than the formal HR reference. Or both of them.
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  #22  
Old 08.02.2020, 21:43
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Re: Termination vs resignation or cancellation agreement in Zeugnis

As to the idea of a real job-offer being withdrawn on the basis of a not-so-good reference... I think this is probable only if the reference refers to some aspect that is specifically contrary to the purpose of the new employee's company.

For example:
  • If the role of the new company is, let's say, auditors/accountants/financial inspectors, then any reference that indicates dishonesty or work that is not precise is likely to turn turn the employer away from wanting to hire the candidate.
  • Similarly, if a reference indicates that the employee underperformed, then a start-up company where everyone works long hours with great dedication to push the company ahead into profitability is less likely to want this candidate.

However, I've also seen a case in which the very attribute which seemed to be negative in a reference was that which a new employer actually wanted. The candidate's references were fairly standard, but every now and again there was a hint that she had not fully submitted to the employer's procedures because she had chosen, instead, to do what the client needed. That previous employer meant it is as a negative reference, but it turned out that the new employer wanted exactly that kind of flexibility and pragmatism, and hired the candidate to work in customer services.
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  #23  
Old 08.02.2020, 23:13
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Re: Termination vs resignation or cancellation agreement in Zeugnis

I'd like to confirm what Tom and 3Wishes have written: Do NOT resign.

Also, some employers suggest that an employee sign a termination form, stating that both sides agree that the employment contract is over, ceases immediately, and that all obligations of each party are herewith deemed to have been fully fulfilles, such that neither can make any further claim on the other. As I have seen it, this is seldom a good idea for the employee. As a general rule, do not sign a termination form, unless you have a very, very good reason to do so, for example are sure you've already been paid everything, including remaining leave pay, and just want to Get Out, and there is only a rush to do that if there's a new job lined up and they want you to start immediately.

The employee should first do EVERYTHING in his power to try not to be fired, after all, and then, if nothing works, just wait for them to give him notice. That will, in just about every way, (but most especially for claiming unemployment benefits from the RAV) end up being better for the employee.

Before leaving, the employee should apply to the employer for the accident insurance cover (this is called, in German BU and NBU) to be extended. This is typically allowed for 30 days. It keeps the employee covered in case they have an accident before the next matters are put in order. Thereafter, your husband will need to check that he is insured for accidents though his medical insurance, at least until he is next employed.

As soon as the notice is definitely given, (and NOT only once that notice period is over!), the employee should register with the RAV. And should begin, without delay, to look for new work. Keep documentation of every effort to find work, to network, and of job applications made. The RAV will require this, and penalise anyone who does not put in enough effort to try to become employed again.
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  #24  
Old 09.02.2020, 06:16
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Re: Termination vs resignation or cancellation agreement in Zeugnis

To add to the above, there are three general employment termination types:
1. Resignation by employee (Selbstkündigung)
2. Termination by mutual agreement (gegenseitiges Einvernehmen)
3. Termination by employer (Kündigung)

The RAV/Kasse process is:
1. Resignation by employee (Selbstkündigung):
a. Employee submits copy of resignation letter.
b. Employee explains on Application for Unemployment Compensation form who terminated whom.
c. Employer explains on Employer Certificate who terminated whom.
d. Kasse determines whether and how many penalty days apply (range is 30 to 60 work days but extenuating circumstances, e.g., mobbing, may reduce or eliminate them).

2. Termination by mutual agreement (gegenseitiges Einvernehmen):
a. Employee submits copy of termination letter.
b. Employee explains on Application for Unemployment Compensation form who terminated whom.
c. Employer explains on Employer Certificate who terminated whom.
d. Kasse may request an additional position statement (Stellungnahme) from the employee.
e. Kasse determines whether and how many penalty days apply based on degree of fault by employee.

3. Termination by employer (Kündigung)
a. Employee submits copy of termination letter.
b. Employee explains on Application for Unemployment Compensation form who terminated whom.
c. Employer explains on Employer Certificate who terminated whom.
d. Kasse determines whether penalty days apply based on degree of fault by employee.

RAV Zurich has an associated legal service called "impuls" that can review and attempt to re-negotiate unfair or negative reference letters.
Regarding accident insurance, an unemployed person is still covered for 31 days following termination by the former employer's accident insurance. RAV/ Kasse then insures the unemployed person against accidents with SUVA. Before the last day of work, it is possible to agree an Abredeversicherung with the employer's insurance company for up to six months.
It is also normally possible to have an inexpensive accident insurance coverage added to a person's health insurance policy. Although it should cover the costs associated with the accident, it would not normally cover lost wages.


BTW: by tipping off the employee to being fired, the employer is risking that the employee will obtain a doctor's note that he is ill (krankgeschrieben) and then is covered by the employer's short-term disability insurance. This can delay the termination by months.
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  #25  
Old 09.02.2020, 16:28
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Re: Termination vs resignation or cancellation agreement in Zeugnis

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Regarding accident insurance, an unemployed person is still covered for 31 days following termination by the former employer's accident insurance. RAV/ Kasse then insures the unemployed person against accidents with SUVA. Before the last day of work, it is possible to agree an Abredeversicherung with the employer's insurance company for up to six months.
It is also normally possible to have an inexpensive accident insurance coverage added to a person's health insurance policy. Although it should cover the costs associated with the accident, it would not normally cover lost wages.
Thank for, Mullhollander, for correcting and expanding upon what I had inaccurately touched upon, above, with regard to accident cover.
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Old 09.02.2020, 20:05
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Re: Termination vs resignation or cancellation agreement in Zeugnis

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Hi

I would appreciate very much your opinion about this...
My husband needs to quit his job and is given 3 options
1-resigning
2-having a cancellation agreement signed by both parties
3-termination

- Is a cancellation agreement reflected or mentioned in the arbeitzeugnis?
- Is there any impact on unemployment compensation for each of these options?
Do you have any recommendation about which is the best option for him?

Thanks...



CJ
When I changed job, it was mentioned in every reference letter that I have quit the company on my own request. I guess this cannot be stated if the person if fired. If the phrase “left on his own request” is not present in the reference, then I hope it will be not an issue for the future employment though.

Personally I would have resigned if the situation deteriorated to the level that you describe — given these 3 options... I would have quit immediately just to get out of the situation.
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  #27  
Old 10.02.2020, 04:16
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Re: Termination vs resignation or cancellation agreement in Zeugnis

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How about he gets fired for the unemployed benefits and receives two Zeugnisse: One for the RAV stating that he got fired and one for future applications that state that both parties agreed to part? That should not be too difficult...

even if the employer stays "as flexible as it sounds": Go for the unemployed benefits. "Getting redundant" is so common these days that I personally would not see it as a bad thing in a CV as much as it used to be some decades ago...
This cannot be done. If shown to the RAv the employer is at risk. Employer should always state as close as possible to the truth without making it too hard to find another role

So phrases like "left at his/her own will" or "would welcome him/her back" are used to hint whether the termination was from employee or employer side.

OP let the company terminate you if that is what they wish to do. There is no longer stigma attached to this, we all have either been there, will be there or know people who have. Don't do the company's dirty work for them.

K
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  #28  
Old 10.02.2020, 04:17
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Re: Termination vs resignation or cancellation agreement in Zeugnis

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Personally I would have resigned if the situation deteriorated to the level that you describe — given these 3 options... I would have quit immediately just to get out of the situation.
As a general (though not immutable) rule in life: never resign until you have your next job offer on paper, signed in ink. It can take unexpectedly long to find a new job.

And the weeks or months from finding out that you're likely to be given notice, and then the notice period itself, can give one time to figure out what's going to happen next, to gather information (like this thread) and especially to apply, apply, apply for a next job. And resigning means that the unemployment benefits will be paid out only after a delay of some "penalty days" (see Mullhollander's post 24 above).
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  #29  
Old 10.02.2020, 20:04
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Re: Termination vs resignation or cancellation agreement in Zeugnis

Thank you all - very helpful. They now seem to have offered him also some career advice program but only for 3 weeks (can this be negotiable? he's been with the company for almost 9 years) so unlikely to make a change to the final outcome (termination or resignation).
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  #30  
Old 11.02.2020, 08:23
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Re: Termination vs resignation or cancellation agreement in Zeugnis

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I'd like to confirm what Tom and 3Wishes have written: Do NOT resign.

Also, some employers suggest that an employee sign a termination form, stating that both sides agree that the employment contract is over, ceases immediately, and that all obligations of each party are herewith deemed to have been fully fulfilles, such that neither can make any further claim on the other. As I have seen it, this is seldom a good idea for the employee. As a general rule, do not sign a termination form, unless you have a very, very good reason to do so, for example are sure you've already been paid everything, including remaining leave pay, and just want to Get Out, and there is only a rush to do that if there's a new job lined up and they want you to start immediately.

The employee should first do EVERYTHING in his power to try not to be fired, after all, and then, if nothing works, just wait for them to give him notice. That will, in just about every way, (but most especially for claiming unemployment benefits from the RAV) end up being better for the employee.

Before leaving, the employee should apply to the employer for the accident insurance cover (this is called, in German BU and NBU) to be extended. This is typically allowed for 30 days. It keeps the employee covered in case they have an accident before the next matters are put in order. Thereafter, your husband will need to check that he is insured for accidents though his medical insurance, at least until he is next employed.

As soon as the notice is definitely given, (and NOT only once that notice period is over!), the employee should register with the RAV. And should begin, without delay, to look for new work. Keep documentation of every effort to find work, to network, and of job applications made. The RAV will require this, and penalise anyone who does not put in enough effort to try to become employed again.
AFAIK, the employee does not have much rights here in CH. My previous HR mentioned to me that even verbal terminations are valid. So, i doubt that not signing a termination letter helps in any way.
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