Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Employment  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 22.01.2009, 11:30
Cjw Cjw is offline
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Rüschlikon
Posts: 13
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Cjw has no particular reputation at present
Termination vs resignation or cancellation agreement in Zeugnis [reference letter]

Hi

I would appreciate very much your opinion about this...
My husband needs to quit his job and is given 3 options
1-resigning
2-having a cancellation agreement signed by both parties
3-termination

- Is a cancellation agreement reflected or mentioned in the arbeitzeugnis?
- Is there any impact on unemployment compensation for each of these options?
Do you have any recommendation about which is the best option for him?

Thanks...



CJ
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 22.01.2009, 11:32
Sutter's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Thurgau
Posts: 5,802
Groaned at 68 Times in 48 Posts
Thanked 2,824 Times in 1,605 Posts
Sutter has a reputation beyond reputeSutter has a reputation beyond reputeSutter has a reputation beyond reputeSutter has a reputation beyond reputeSutter has a reputation beyond reputeSutter has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Termination vs resignation or cancellation agreement in Zeugnis

Personaly i would resign looks better
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 22.01.2009, 11:34
Scott's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Buchs SG
Posts: 1,212
Groaned at 26 Times in 18 Posts
Thanked 702 Times in 359 Posts
Scott has a reputation beyond reputeScott has a reputation beyond reputeScott has a reputation beyond reputeScott has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Termination vs resignation or cancellation agreement in Zeugnis

Quote:
View Post
Personaly i would resign looks better
No longer the case Sutter.

If you quit, there are (to the best of my knowledge) no unemployment
benefits.

Agree cancellation as well.

If he is fired, then unemployment picks up right off. Best option if another
job is not in sight.

What is best for him/you two... is your decision!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 22.01.2009, 11:37
Sutter's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Thurgau
Posts: 5,802
Groaned at 68 Times in 48 Posts
Thanked 2,824 Times in 1,605 Posts
Sutter has a reputation beyond reputeSutter has a reputation beyond reputeSutter has a reputation beyond reputeSutter has a reputation beyond reputeSutter has a reputation beyond reputeSutter has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Termination vs resignation or cancellation agreement in Zeugnis

Quote:
View Post
No longer the case Sutter.

If you quit, there are (to the best of my knowledge) no unemployment
benefits.

Agree cancellation as well.

If he is fired, then unemployment picks up right off. Best option if another
job is not in sight.

What is best for him/you two... is your decision!
Grrrrrrrr sorry OP been a stay at home mum to long

Thanks Scott.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 22.01.2009, 11:44
Cjw Cjw is offline
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Rüschlikon
Posts: 13
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Cjw has no particular reputation at present
Re: Termination vs resignation or cancellation agreement in Zeugnis

Thanks, both of you

He's been told by his boss & HR that if he was terminated it would be mentioned in the zeugniss, so even for the unemployment benefits that may not be worth it...

To be confirmed but if he resigns, they may still ask him to come to work (what for?...) during his notice period, whereas with the cancellation agreement if can definitely stay at home to focus on his job search.
We were just not sure about how potential employers would read it if ever it is mentioned

CJ
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 22.01.2009, 11:59
Scott's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Buchs SG
Posts: 1,212
Groaned at 26 Times in 18 Posts
Thanked 702 Times in 359 Posts
Scott has a reputation beyond reputeScott has a reputation beyond reputeScott has a reputation beyond reputeScott has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Termination vs resignation or cancellation agreement in Zeugnis

Quote:
View Post
Thanks, both of you

He's been told by his boss & HR that if he was terminated it would be mentioned in the zeugniss, so even for the unemployment benefits that may not be worth it...

To be confirmed but if he resigns, they may still ask him to come to work (what for?...) during his notice period, whereas with the cancellation agreement if can definitely stay at home to focus on his job search.
We were just not sure about how potential employers would read it if ever it is mentioned

CJ
Careful... Most likely, according to his contract, he has a resignation or
termination period. This means, normally (unless otherwise agreed upon
by both parties black on white) he works till the last day of the
termination. If he is immediately terminated, that is different. He
receives the normal pay till the end of the termination period.

Usually, when an agreed termination, one can open thy mouth and
request what is put in the Arbeitszeugnis.

When terminated or resignation, you have a choice... full Arbeitszeugnis
with the opinions and information from the employer; or a confirmation,
which states you worked here or there doing this, that and the other
from then to now.

With the job market the way it is now... I would agree on a termination.
The text in the Arbeitszeugnis is nothing extreme, lots of people are
being fired these days. The financial benefits are better than nothing!
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Scott for this useful post:
  #7  
Old 22.01.2009, 12:01
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 11,749
Groaned at 297 Times in 254 Posts
Thanked 22,120 Times in 8,034 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Termination vs resignation or cancellation agreement in Zeugnis

How about he gets fired for the unemployed benefits and receives two Zeugnisse: One for the RAV stating that he got fired and one for future applications that state that both parties agreed to part? That should not be too difficult...

even if the employer stays "as flexible as it sounds": Go for the unemployed benefits. "Getting redundant" is so common these days that I personally would not see it as a bad thing in a CV as much as it used to be some decades ago...
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 22.01.2009, 12:01
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Geneva
Posts: 5,531
Groaned at 123 Times in 108 Posts
Thanked 3,297 Times in 1,737 Posts
Shorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Termination vs resignation or cancellation agreement in Zeugnis

Quote:
View Post
No longer the case Sutter.

If you quit, there are (to the best of my knowledge) no unemployment
benefits.
The unemployment benefits are paid even if you resign, with some penalties attached however.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Shorrick Mk2 for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 22.01.2009, 12:03
Scott's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Buchs SG
Posts: 1,212
Groaned at 26 Times in 18 Posts
Thanked 702 Times in 359 Posts
Scott has a reputation beyond reputeScott has a reputation beyond reputeScott has a reputation beyond reputeScott has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Termination vs resignation or cancellation agreement in Zeugnis

Quote:
View Post
How about he gets fired for the unemployed benefits and receives two Zeugnisse: One for the RAV stating that he got fired and one for future applications that state that both parties agreed to part? That should not be too difficult...
I would not do that on the grounds that I could get my hands slapped or
even fined. Too risky on the part of the employer, IMO.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 22.01.2009, 12:20
Cjw Cjw is offline
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Rüschlikon
Posts: 13
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Cjw has no particular reputation at present
Re: Termination vs resignation or cancellation agreement in Zeugnis

Quote:
View Post
Careful... Most likely, according to his contract, he has a resignation or
termination period. This means, normally (unless otherwise agreed upon
by both parties black on white) he works till the last day of the
termination. If he is immediately terminated, that is different. He
receives the normal pay till the end of the termination period.

Usually, when an agreed termination, one can open thy mouth and
request what is put in the Arbeitszeugnis.

When terminated or resignation, you have a choice... full Arbeitszeugnis
with the opinions and information from the employer; or a confirmation,
which states you worked here or there doing this, that and the other
from then to now.

With the job market the way it is now... I would agree on a termination.
The text in the Arbeitszeugnis is nothing extreme, lots of people are
being fired these days. The financial benefits are better than nothing!

Sorry I wasn't clear. They told him that if he agreed upon a cancellation agreement he would not have to serve his notice period but they did not discuss it for the termination option.
For the zeugniss content, they agreed that he would provide the bullet points so I guess it is always good to go for the full Arbeitzeugnis, but we were wondering if it was compulsory for the employer to state how the 2 parties split?

CJ
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 22.01.2009, 12:23
Scott's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Buchs SG
Posts: 1,212
Groaned at 26 Times in 18 Posts
Thanked 702 Times in 359 Posts
Scott has a reputation beyond reputeScott has a reputation beyond reputeScott has a reputation beyond reputeScott has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Termination vs resignation or cancellation agreement in Zeugnis

Quote:
View Post
Sorry I wasn't clear. They told him that if he agreed upon a cancellation agreement he would not have to serve his notice period but they did not discuss it for the termination option.
For the zeugniss content, they agreed that he would provide the bullet points so I guess it is always good to go for the full Arbeitzeugnis, but we were wondering if it was compulsory for the employer to state how the 2 parties split?

CJ
Get any agreements in writing. Do not take any chances!

It is the option of the person writing the Zeugnis how they word it and
what they put in it. Including the reason for separation.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Scott for this useful post:
  #12  
Old 22.01.2009, 12:47
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Geneva
Posts: 5,531
Groaned at 123 Times in 108 Posts
Thanked 3,297 Times in 1,737 Posts
Shorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Termination vs resignation or cancellation agreement in Zeugnis

Quote:
View Post
Sorry I wasn't clear. They told him that if he agreed upon a cancellation agreement he would not have to serve his notice period but they did not discuss it for the termination option.
There no such thing as a cancellation agreement, as far as employment law is concerned.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Shorrick Mk2 for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 22.01.2009, 12:57
lucy_sg's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 677
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 339 Times in 199 Posts
lucy_sg has a reputation beyond reputelucy_sg has a reputation beyond reputelucy_sg has a reputation beyond reputelucy_sg has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Termination vs resignation or cancellation agreement in Zeugnis

Quote:
View Post
The unemployment benefits are paid even if you resign, with some penalties attached however.
Penalization can be up to 60 working days (a few months long). Unless you have very good demonstrable reasons to do so, i wouldn't go down this route if you want to collect unemployment. Specially at these times, when they are cutting the benefits as much as they can.

Regarding the zeugnis, it is not true that it has to mention that he was fired. Remember, zeugnis has to be positive at all times. A simple neutral statement "is leaving the company without any further obligations" is suffice. Also, he can use the formula "we had to let go of him due to re organization in the company, and are very sorry to see him go".

The RAV or the Arbeitloskasse (i.e the institution that will pay your money) won't take the zeugnis in consideration for unemployment subsidy. The employer will have to fill an yellow paper where they will have to declare how the job was lost (either voluntarily or terminated by the employer).

So, it is compulsory that the employer declares how the 2 parties split to the RAV/Arbeitlossenkasse. But, the Zeugnis can be written in a neutral way, in such way that it doesn't arm your husband.

Regarding the termination period - yes, they can make him go and work. They can agree otherwise, but he has to be prepared for the employers decision.

Best of luck!

PS - Also, clarify the vacation time when discussing the terms of termination. If he has any vacations left, he company may ask him to burn the days. Otherwise, he can cash those days. If applies, also discuss the bonus for last year. That will depend on how the contract was written, but if he has met the criteria, he will be entitled to it (either having resigned or being fired).

PPS - Another good reason for being fired - the employer has to give him time to look for a job. He can just get a few hours, or a couple of days to do this.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank lucy_sg for this useful post:
  #14  
Old 22.01.2009, 13:00
Nathu's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Zürich
Posts: 4,674
Groaned at 18 Times in 16 Posts
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,248 Posts
Nathu has a reputation beyond reputeNathu has a reputation beyond reputeNathu has a reputation beyond reputeNathu has a reputation beyond reputeNathu has a reputation beyond reputeNathu has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Termination vs resignation or cancellation agreement in Zeugnis

Quote:
View Post
There no such thing as a cancellation agreement, as far as employment law is concerned.
However it may be found as a statement in the job reference: "Der Austritt erfolgte im gegenseitigen Einverständnis" in German. In English "The leaving happened by mutual agreement", it translates to "the employer doesn't object to the employee leaving". (source)
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Nathu for this useful post:
  #15  
Old 22.01.2009, 13:03
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Geneva
Posts: 5,531
Groaned at 123 Times in 108 Posts
Thanked 3,297 Times in 1,737 Posts
Shorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Termination vs resignation or cancellation agreement in Zeugnis

Quote:
View Post
However it may be found as a statement in the job reference: "Der Austritt erfolgte im gegenseitigen Einverständnis" in German. In English "The leaving happened by mutual agreement", it translates to "the employer doesn't object to the employee leaving". (source)

And we all know how "gegenseitigen Einverständnis" actually translates
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08.02.2020, 21:04
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Basel
Posts: 8
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
enigma007 has no particular reputation at present
Re: Termination vs resignation or cancellation agreement in Zeugnis

My husband has been asked to a) resign or b) be terminated (for alleged underperformance), with hr warning that b) would result in bad zeugnis and inclusion of a sentence that he's been terminated. What are his options? Can he request that the termination is not mentioned on the zeugnis? How can he be sure that even resigning will not result in bad zeugnis. Will RAV accept that he's been made to quit the job, even when he's officially 'resigning himself'? Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08.02.2020, 21:42
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 29,139
Groaned at 2,042 Times in 1,527 Posts
Thanked 34,698 Times in 16,482 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Termination vs resignation or cancellation agreement in Zeugnis

Do NOT resign.

Tom
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #18  
Old 08.02.2020, 21:45
3Wishes's Avatar
Moderately Amused
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bern area
Posts: 10,689
Groaned at 77 Times in 74 Posts
Thanked 17,726 Times in 7,959 Posts
3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Termination vs resignation or cancellation agreement in Zeugnis

Quote:
View Post
My husband has been asked to a) resign or b) be terminated (for alleged underperformance), with hr warning that b) would result in bad zeugnis and inclusion of a sentence that he's been terminated. What are his options? Can he request that the termination is not mentioned on the zeugnis? How can he be sure that even resigning will not result in bad zeugnis. Will RAV accept that he's been made to quit the job, even when he's officially 'resigning himself'? Thanks.
I don't know all the answers, but if he wants full RAV payment he should not resign. Also from what I have read here on EF, the employer isn't allowed to write a "bad" zeugnis that would then cause other employers not to consider him.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank 3Wishes for this useful post:
  #19  
Old 08.02.2020, 21:50
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 7,122
Groaned at 67 Times in 54 Posts
Thanked 10,361 Times in 4,239 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Termination vs resignation or cancellation agreement in Zeugnis

Somehow it is an old-fashioned notion that being given notice is a very, very, very bad mark against one's name and honour. That definitely used to be the case much more than it is nowadays. References are still important, no doubt, but they can no longer eternally crush a potential employee's job-seeking chances the the extent that they used to be perceived. The working climate has changed, and people just do get terminated, and the world still turns. EDIT: I do, however, sympathise, and it is never a nice thing when it happens.

It is illegal for an employer to write a deliberately bad reference. Obviously, however, the employer can imply the basic sentiment, though, and yes, that will show through.

Yes, your husband can request that the termination not be mentioned in the reference, but he may not be successful in that. He can see what the reference says, and then ask for modifications, although it is not guaranteed that these will be adopted.

Sometimes, it is a particular manager or head of department who is behind the termination of an employment contract, and others may not agree. Does your husband know other colleagues or managers at his place of work, who do not think that he has under-performed? Is there someone currently still working there, who would write him a casual reference (i.e. not the formal one that goes through HR) saying what they appreciated about working with him? Or is there someone who, themselves, has already left the company, who would write such a reference?

If your husband can obtain such a favourable reference from someone who thinks his work was fine, then he can use it, in job applications, in addition to or even instead of the formal termination reference.

In any case - regardless of the assessment of underperformance - it can be a good idea for the employee to start the process of writing the reference. Sometimes it can take the pressure of the manager if the employee does the work of looking up the framework, such as full name and address, AHV number, date of commencement, etc. Also - and I think this is important - the employee knows best what he/she really did. So your husband could list all his tasks and skills and responsibilities, and ask that that list be included in the reference. That'll at least give him a document of the scope of what he can do.

Ditto, into the separate reference written by anyone else he may approach.

The RAV payments are cut short for people who have resigned, i.e. there is a longer waiting period before unemployment benefits are paid out, when compared to those whose contracts were terminated by the employer.

So: in general, don't resign. If they're going to terminate, then let that happen.

One more thing... the RAV may ask whether the employee truly did everything that he could to try to avoid the termination. Does he fully understand what, exactly, his targets and shortfalls were, that have caused them to say he is underperforming? Has he, for example, tried to get a re-assessment by someone else in the company? Has he enquired from other managers whether he could perhaps transfer to a different department? Has he asked his manager if there are remedial steps he could take, from now on up until some specified date from now, so that he could have a chance to prove himself, and not be fired?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank doropfiz for this useful post:
  #20  
Old 08.02.2020, 22:06
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Basel
Posts: 8
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
enigma007 has no particular reputation at present
Re: Termination vs resignation or cancellation agreement in Zeugnis

Many thanks for your responses, this is very helpful. One additional question: at which point of the recruitment process with the new employer is the zeugnis requested (if at all) and can it be a reason for the offer being withdrawn. I've heard that often a contract is signed without requesting a zeugnis...
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank enigma007 for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
zeugnis




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Reference letters [Zeugnis ] - Q&A thread Richard Employment 134 12.08.2020 10:42
Resignation Letter - Status BenVevey Employment 6 29.10.2019 10:19
Resignation letter rejected - what now? Guest Employment 16 04.05.2019 12:43
Recommendation Letter (Zeugnis) in English or German mcomartins Employment 2 18.11.2016 16:24
What is a zeugnis in reference to Kindergarten OBone Family matters/health 19 14.07.2011 18:37


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:05.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0