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  #41  
Old 22.11.2012, 14:47
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Re: Tibits & Hiltl

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If they are doing nothing wrong as you boldly state, why do they never respond to bio comment on their website by the many who have eaten there and comment about the food being bio.

I would expect, something like, thank you for your comment but no, you are mistaken most are food are not bio.
Nothing bold about it, if they do not advertise themselves as being bio, then it is up to the individual to check first, before they eat there.
If I eat at (hypothetically), the Manor cafe, and then discover that they are not vegetarian, then it is my problem, because I assumed, wrongly, that they are.
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Old 22.11.2012, 14:50
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Re: Tibits & Hiltl

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i would choose sustainably and living off the pure land if the world could offer it. its better people have the ability to feed themselves than have to rely on the developed world to feed them on non natural food sources.
the developed world has caused starvation and poverty, its a chain of events that capitalism has created and cannot fix.

this isnt just about people remember, using pesticides kills other living organisms that affect the whole food web (chain).
if we all lived a modern version of a hunter gatherer, we would all be much more healthier and fitter. if people took the time to learn how their bodies actually worked they would treat them better and enjoy themselves a little more. Temptation and the free ability to be gluttonous have made the developed world an awful place to live in sometimes.
Very utopian of you. What about Mendelian gene manipulation? After all, it's the oldest form of genetic modification and has proven to be pretty healthy - get rid of that, too?
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  #43  
Old 22.11.2012, 14:51
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Re: Tibits & Hiltl

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i would choose sustainably and living off the pure land if the world could offer it.
OK, so if you could turn the clock back and teach the world to sing in perfect harmony, I get it.

But you can't

So, we are where we are. What do you do?
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  #44  
Old 22.11.2012, 14:53
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Re: Tibits & Hiltl

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Its funny, I have NEVER thought of Bio / Organic being about health, more about sustainable agriculture.
I think there are a lot of myths out there. For example, producers often go out the way to say they do not use pesticides etc.. to qualify under some countrys definition of organic, then go ahead and use some even more potent and deadly means to control that particular offender which in turn often has a more detrimental impact on the environment and future production. Have a look at the bio wine industry for example, they use copper and sulfurs diectly in the environment to control mildew and they call it organic.

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not having the chemicals from pesticides and Genetically modified food is always going to be better for you!
In many defititions of Bio, it does not equate to no pesticides, rather a lower tolerance or residue of certain pesticides, miticides, fungicides, etc... and I think the jury is still out there on GMOs, mixed scientific evidence.
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Old 22.11.2012, 14:55
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Re: Tibits & Hiltl

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I think there are a lot of myths out there. For example, producers often go out the way to say they do not use pesticides etc.. to qualify under some countrys definition of organic, then go ahead and use some even more potent and deadly means to control that particular offender which in turn often has a more detrimental impact on the environment and future production. Have a look at the bio wine industry for example, they use copper and sulfurs diectly in the environment to control mildew and they call it organic.


.
Copper sulphate has long been accepted as an organically-acceptable agri-chemical
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  #46  
Old 22.11.2012, 15:04
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Re: Tibits & Hiltl

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Very utopian of you. What about Mendelian gene manipulation? After all, it's the oldest form of genetic modification and has proven to be pretty healthy - get rid of that, too?
fair point, remember we are still natural beings just like a plant or any other animal so how we change the world is still a natural process, however we as humans can be regarded (arguably, if we could argue with animals) as a superior being and therefore need to realise that our acts do not just affect a small area but they affect everything on a global scale, eg digging for oil, no other being would be doing that and so we need to restrain ourselves and act responsibly for the sustainability of this world and the things within it.

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OK, so if you could turn the clock back and teach the world to sing in perfect harmony, I get it.

But you can't

So, we are were we are. What do you do?
begin to teach the world...... gotta start somewhere right? and then let people make their own choices, the world will be what its wants it to be whether thats a good thing or a bad thing. but if there`s one thing i do believe in it is that the world will try its best to preserve itself at all costs.
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  #47  
Old 22.11.2012, 15:15
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Re: Tibits & Hiltl

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fair point, remember we are still natural beings just like a plant or any other animal so how we change the world is still a natural process, however we as humans can be regarded (arguably, if we could argue with animals) as a superior being and therefore need to realise that our acts do not just affect a small area but they affect everything on a global scale, eg digging for oil, no other being would be doing that and so we need to restrain ourselves and act responsibly for the sustainability of this world and the things within it.
I get what you're saying, but I'm a staunch evolutionist - and I believe that everything we do, from war to nukes to spaceflight to GMOs and chemical fertilizer is an evolutionary adaptation, and it will resolve itself the way all evolutionary adaptations do.

We'll live, or die.

Remember, we got here through technology and extermination. If you doubt that, chat to your local Neanderthal and see their opinion on the subject. Sure, we can try to rise above this, but we are a specie born to destroy and we do it so very, very well.

It's not a modern issue, we've been doing it all our history. Simple societies just had less powerful tools, but they did it all the same. Look at Head Smashed In Buffalo Jump for an example of stone-age, non-sustainable industrial food harvesting practices.

[edit: just to be clear, I'm not espousing descent into some sort of nihilistic, Darwinian anarchy - however I think to deny that we are here because of technology or that we haven't clawed our way to the top over a mountain of extincted species is facetious. There isn't a utopic past, and nature made us (or we evolved) to meddle, destroy and kill. Bio isn't natural - it's profoundly UNnatural, from an evolutionary point of view.]

Last edited by Occasional_Canadian; 22.11.2012 at 15:25. Reason: clarity
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  #48  
Old 22.11.2012, 15:23
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Re: Tibits & Hiltl

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I get what you're saying, but I'm a staunch evolutionist - and I believe that everything we do, from war to nukes to spaceflight to GMOs and chemical fertilizer is an evolutionary adaptation, and it will resolve itself the way all evolutionary adaptations do.

We'll live, or die.

Remember, we got here through technology and extermination. If you doubt that, chat to your local Neanderthal and see their opinion on the subject. Sure, we can try to rise above this, but we are a specie born to destroy and we do it so very, very well.

It's not a modern issue, we've been doing it all our history. Simple societies just had less powerful tools, but they did it all the same. Look at Head Smashed In Buffalo Jump for an example of stone-age, non-sustainable industrial food harvesting practices.
I complete agree with the principle, i just believe we could be different. As for the neanderthal living, i did say we should use a modern adaptation of it. or bodies just aren't equip to handle the abuse that modern day living gives it. we still have an appendix and a coccyx... proves how slowly our bodies change to our environment.
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Old 22.11.2012, 15:25
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Re: Tibits & Hiltl

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i would choose sustainably and living off the pure land.... SNIP...... if we all lived a modern version of a hunter gatherer, we would all be much more healthier and fitter.
Interesting.....
Last night on a documentary on BBC2 or 4 about how man has changed his environment (specifically, "mega-cities" was the subject), apparently Toyko city has a population of more than 36 million, yes 36 MILLION people, all living in high rise blocks. Please, in your perfect world, what would they hunt in downtown Tokyo and where would they gather

Seriously, I believe that we (meaning the industrial nations) should concentrate our efforts in attempting to provide safe food, clean water and easily accessible health care to as many people everywhere as possible. If one type of rice is genetically modified to better resist disease, therefore increasing yield and feeding more people who otherwise wouldn't have anything in their rusty bowl, then IMO that's o.k.
If I want to buy Grumpy's excellent artisan cheese, that's my choice - I live in a priveleged environment. Half the world's population would grab the chance to escape their hunter/gatherer existance.

Long post, rant over
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Old 22.11.2012, 15:26
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Re: Tibits & Hiltl

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I complete agree with the principle, i just believe we could be different. As for the neanderthal living, i did say we should use a modern adaptation of it. or bodies just aren't equip to handle the abuse that modern day living gives it. we still have an appendix and a coccyx... proves how slowly our bodies change to our environment.
Our bodies weren't equipped very well then, either - life expectancy was low thirties if you were lucky.

As for the appendix or coccyx - we're not under any evolutionary pressure to lose them, so they may stay for millenia. Whales still have vestigial hind legs...
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Old 22.11.2012, 15:29
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Re: Tibits & Hiltl

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You have been recommending it as Bio for a year without checking that it was and then you went to France and a lady in a shop told you it wasn't so you are now writing to the boss to see what can be done about it?

Classic
My first thoughts too... you couldn't make it up.
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  #52  
Old 22.11.2012, 15:39
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Re: Tibits & Hiltl

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Interesting.....
Last night on a documentary on BBC2 or 4 about how man has changed his environment (specifically, "mega-cities" was the subject), apparently Toyko city has a population of more than 36 million, yes 36 MILLION people, all living in high rise blocks. Please, in your perfect world, what would they hunt in downtown Tokyo and where would they gather

Seriously, I believe that we (meaning the industrial nations) should concentrate our efforts in attempting to provide safe food, clean water and easily accessible health care to as many people everywhere as possible. If one type of rice is genetically modified to better resist disease, therefore increasing yield and feeding more people who otherwise wouldn't have anything in their rusty bowl, then IMO that's o.k.
If I want to buy Grumpy's excellent artisan cheese, that's my choice - I live in a priveleged environment. Half the world's population would grab the chance to escape their hunter/gatherer existance.

Long post, rant over
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Our bodies weren't equipped very well then, either - life expectancy was low thirties if you were lucky.

As for the appendix or coccyx - we're not under any evolutionary pressure to lose them, so they may stay for millenia. Whales still have vestigial hind legs...
i`m not saying go back to killing an buffalo and ploughing a field with a muel. i`m mearly saying we need to respects the way in which we use to live, i.e we never use to eat so much protein from an animal everyday 365 days a year, leafy foods, veg, fruits and nuts were staple foods, meat was a luxury and stored to be sustained for rainy days. Starvation was common, (there was a bbc horizon programme called eat,fast,live longer that showed that by starving yourself on small occasions once every month two for 24-48 hours, your memory would improve, this was linked to when we use to gather food and it would take days to find it and new memory neurons would be created in order for us to remember where the food sources were. watch it, its a brilliant eye opener). if we respect these cycles and mirror them in modern day to day living i truly believe we can live better lives. i'm defo not saying get you loin clothe and spear out but just treat your body with the respect it deserve (for a bit) and see the difference.
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Old 22.11.2012, 15:43
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Re: Tibits & Hiltl

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i`m not saying go back to killing an buffalo and ploughing a field with a muel. i`m mearly saying we need to respects the way in which we use to live, i.e we never use to eat so much protein from an animal everyday 365 days a year, leafy foods, veg, fruits and nuts were staple foods, meat was a luxury and stored to be sustained for rainy days. Starvation was common, (there was a bbc horizon programme called eat,fast,live longer that showed that by starving yourself on small occasions once every month two for 24-48 hours, your memory would improve, this was linked to when we use to gather food and it would take days to find it and new memory neurons would be created in order for us to remember where the food sources were. watch it, its a brilliant eye opener). if we respect these cycles and mirror them in modern day to day living i truly believe we can live better lives. i'm defo not saying get you loin clothe and spear out but just treat your body with the respect it deserve (for a bit) and see the difference.
Except for those cultures where meat is the staple of the diet.. but in general, I see your point and don't disagree. However, I draw a line at utopic views of the past... there was excess then, too - just for a smaller segment of the population. We haven't changed in our health and dietary vices, we've just made them more accessible.

And there's this pesky freedom thing that keeps intervening - even if McD's was made bio, there'd still be lardasses driving electric scooters through the drivethru to get their fix. It's their right.
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Old 22.11.2012, 15:53
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Re: Tibits & Hiltl

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i'm defo not saying get you loin clothe and spear out but just treat your body with the respect it deserve (for a bit) and see the difference.
I do realize what you're saying and couldn't agree more, actually. Problem is, treating one's body "with the respect it deserves" is a relatively modern luxury. Few have ever had that luxury, historically speaking, and probably, if the world's population continues to grow at the current rate, I doubt that (in absolute numbers) the majority of humans - current or future - will ever enjoy the privelege of regular and balanced nutrition.
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Old 22.11.2012, 16:03
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Re: Tibits & Hiltl

Both very right indeed. Contrary to everything i have said in this thread, i am partial to mc chicken nuggets after a couple pints!
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