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  #61  
Old 06.12.2010, 23:20
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Re: Depression Sufferers

Something that I've been reading occasionally from the U.S.

http://positivepsychologynews.com/

They talk a lot about meditation, measuring happiness, etc etc. It's sort of self-help, but not quite pop psychology - there is a fair amount of research behind it.

And
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Wow, perhaps everybody has a different experience of depression. When I get depressed, I find myself focusing too much and too long on my self - what I am thinking and feeling. One of the ways I work myself out of depression is by getting engrossed in something other than myself. Sometimes an urgent or delicate situation may present itself which requires my full attention. During such times, I am able to lose myself in an activity or objective. When I get my attention off of myself, I find I am not depressed. Also, adrenaline pulls me out of depression. I suspect one cause of depression is the shortage of adrenaline. I have always loved adrenaline. I think learning how to pump it out is better than anti-depressant pharmaceuticals.
Honestly, I don't think you've had the really debilitating sort of depression where you're in a black hole and can't get out of it. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. But if you haven't, good for you. Actually adrenaline is great, it's what gives you the energy to act. But, people with lots of anxiety always have that adrenaline turned up high and it's no fun.Exhausting.
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Old 06.12.2010, 23:39
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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Something that I've been reading occasionally from the U.S.

http://positivepsychologynews.com/

They talk a lot about meditation, measuring happiness, etc etc. It's sort of self-help, but not quite pop psychology - there is a fair amount of research behind it.
We have a professor specialising in positive psychology at Zurich, his name is Willibald Ruch. But as sad proof that knowing something in theory doesn't mean you can help yourself, one his best advanced students who was also a friend of mine killed herself a few years ago.
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Old 06.12.2010, 23:50
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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Honestly, I don't think you've had the really debilitating sort of depression where you're in a black hole and can't get out of it. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. But if you haven't, good for you. Actually adrenaline is great, it's what gives you the energy to act. But, people with lots of anxiety always have that adrenaline turned up high and it's no fun.Exhausting.
Of course I have, and I still do. We call it the "Dark night of the soul". There is a purpose to depression. It is for cultivating wisdom. There are valleys and there are mountain tops. Unfortunately, the way to the mountain tops go through valleys.

Dealing with depression is an acquired skill. There is no magic pill for getting rid of it, nor a magic incantation. But there is such a thing as self-knowledge for navigating out of it. Part of it is conditioning your body to compensate for the physiological effects of depression. That means consciously setting your posture - head-up, shoulder straight, and smile. The other part is as you have pointed out, is deciding which of your thoughts to keep and which to discard. There are thoughts that are self-defeating, and there are thoughts that are empowering. Knowing the difference is best advantage you have over depression.

Different people will have different exit paths. I suggest that those who are working their way out of depression keep a journal of how they get out. Because I think it is a recurring cycle. The next time around, I think you can use the same way out.
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Old 06.12.2010, 23:52
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Re: Depression Sufferers

Wow, Phos - well put.
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Old 07.12.2010, 01:15
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Re: Depression Sufferers

Somewhere I can't remember I read that slaphappy people do not think accurately and slightly grumpy folks have a lot more realistic idea about how things really are. Might be pop psy but personally, melancholy is a lot more productive and closer to reality than bliss, isn't critical thinking and being thoughtful (in reasonable amount) what we actually want..I am not talking about debilitating blues here, just a notion to cherish a mindset that might be positive and constructive in disguise and that is actually so looked down upon.

kslausanne, thanks for sharing, my thoughts go out to you...I wouldn't worry about screwing up as a parent, we always do what we think is the best. I think realizing our folks are far from perfect and their powers limited is what makes one grow up, besides one can still make oneself believe they were perfect...
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Old 07.12.2010, 04:36
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Re: Depression Sufferers

Since St. John's Wort was mentioned, I should mention Omega 3 fatty acids for keeping the brain on an even keel. Won't resolve profound depression, obviously, but I think it helps milder cases, and it definitely can't hurt.
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  #67  
Old 07.12.2010, 08:56
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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We have a professor specialising in positive psychology at Zurich, his name is Willibald Ruch. But as sad proof that knowing something in theory doesn't mean you can help yourself, one his best advanced students who was also a friend of mine killed herself a few years ago.
I was just reading something the other day - I think it was the psychologist Albert Bandura who said exactly that. And that it was very often true of psychologists - what they know in theory they don't often apply in practice totheir own lives. It's sad isn't it? And makes you wonder if looking for those answers draws people into such fields. Except the application to your own life isn't as easy as developing the theory. And maybe we don't value applying those theories quite enough, or recognize hoe really difficult it is.

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Of course I have, and I still do. We call it the "Dark night of the soul". There is a purpose to depression. It is for cultivating wisdom. There are valleys and there are mountain tops. Unfortunately, the way to the mountain tops go through valleys.

Different people will have different exit paths. I suggest that those who are working their way out of depression keep a journal of how they get out. Because I think it is a recurring cycle. The next time around, I think you can use the same way out.
Well then, I stand corrected. Clearly you know yourself. And what you suggest might be a way to live. I wonder that regular journal keeping might make it easier to continue when you're in that dark place, and might even offer some protection. I still wonder how someone who can barely get out of bed, however, can keep a journal. Do you consider depression to be an illness?

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Somewhere I can't remember I read that slaphappy people do not think accurately and slightly grumpy folks have a lot more realistic idea about how things really are. Might be pop psy but personally, melancholy is a lot more productive and closer to reality than bliss, isn't critical thinking and being thoughtful (in reasonable amount) what we actually want..I am not talking about debilitating blues here, just a notion to cherish a mindset that might be positive and constructive in disguise and that is actually so looked down upon.
You're actually right, - people with depressed mood had better recall, if I remember that correctly. And people with anxiety can be more attentive - they're more aware of the world around them - which can be good or horribly distracting.

Anyway, positive psychology really is an unfortunate term. It isn't necessarily about being slaphappy, blind fantasy. It's more about optimism and self-efficacy - believing that you have the tools to deal with what you're faced with.

Last edited by edot; 07.12.2010 at 09:19.
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  #68  
Old 07.12.2010, 09:12
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Re: Depression Sufferers

That thread is just bang on for me . I just have climbed on top , or at least am on the way to the top, again after a debiliating time that lasted almost two years.

I used different ways and means to beat it,with various success;

At first I tried to beat it myself and failed of course miserably as i am sure fellow sufferes know.

It didn't help that everytime i thought now I am on the up and it's getting better, there came a usually nasty surprise, which threw me back at the bottom time and again


What worked well for me was:

Talking therapy with a psychiatrist ,who's got a 'wholesome' approach ,and is also using alternative methods to help, for me it was colour therapy according to the body's chakra related colours, I do this for a little longer than a year now and my 'levels' are now getting better to good even.

Breathing therapy,where I also learned techniques to deal ith, when I felt a panic attack coming and was able sometimes to stall the attacks thanks to this, it also helped to empty the mind after a session.

In connection with that I developped an interest in Feng Shui and altered things in our flat and am convinced it also helped a little bit.

The kids and I got a dog early this year and thus I HAD to go out, wether I wanted it or not and there was no more hiding indoors and shutting myself away. Through our Liza I then also met and talked to people in the forest when walking her and this also helped me to get more courageous and go out more. Of course the excersise is an added benefit and I think this helped a great deal as well. For me it's a tad more complicated as I am almost totally deaf and it needs a lot of concentration to understand people I don't know ( strangers, shop assitants, bank tellers etcetc) which was another reason why I grew kind of sociophobic and it really helped and thanks to the dog the feeling of loneliness wasn't as bad anymore, too,when the girls were at school /friends etc.

I also was put on meds..but they did not agree very well with me and now,since a month, I am on a strong,standardised St. Johns Worth course and this helps even better than the chemical tablets and no side effects to boot!!

Not to forget, my friends ! I will never be able to repay them for what they did for me ,by listening to me, trying to help and never giving up believing in me that I WILL get better and not judging me for it and the way I turned to be in those almost two years!

All this helped me to get a grip again on my live and I am well aware the illness may come back full strenght any time, but I am determined to not let it get as bad a hold over me ever again!


What bugged me during this time is that there are people who don't see that this is indeed an illness , you are not lazy , not a whinger, not 'not wanting to get better' ....you simply can't !!!! But as you don't break out in spots or have a plaster cast and so its a kind of invisible illness, there is a big lack of understanding for someone with Depression!!!

Last edited by EastEnders; 07.12.2010 at 09:25. Reason: spelling......sigh
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Old 07.12.2010, 10:58
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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Do you consider depression to be an illness?
It is an illness, though it may not be strictly a medical illness. There are a range of conditions identified as depression. From a doctor's perspective, the symptoms can be treated with medicine. But depression can be a symptom of some other underlying cause. In some cases, prescribing medicine without addressing the underlying cause may provide temporary relief at best, or exacerbate the condition at worse.
-Neurological conditions can cause depression. For example, dementia can cause depression.
-Mental illnesses are usually accompanied by depression
-Hormonal imbalances can cause depression

But depressions can also be primarily brought on by belief, and it can affect the physical state of the person.
-Disappointments
-Social isolation
-Boredom and sadness
-Normal psychological development processes
-Philosophical existentialist crisis
-A longing for more spiritual meaning in one's life

In cases where depression is the symptom, I wonder about the wisdom of prescribing strong antidepressants without a better understanding of the underlying cause. This practice is quite common. It is fine for alleviating pain, but it may only be temporary if the underlying cause is not addressed. I think it is important to explain to patients the difference between alleviating the symptoms and dealing with the cause. Putting all hopes in a pill may cause even greater disappointment and damage for someone who is already experiencing severe hopelessness.
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Old 07.12.2010, 15:58
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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There was an interesting study done at the Northwestern University on the cultural aspect of depression. They find that people in individualistic western societies have a much higher rate of depression than those in collective asian cultures. Even though those in asian cultures have the same genetic pre-disposition to be depressed - the Seratonin Transporter Gene, the social support system of the "We" culture of asians appear to buffer them from depression, while the "I" culture of the west may not offer the same support system.

http://www.northwestern.edu/newscent.../10/chiao.html

Also, the west has turned depression into a segment of pharmaceutical industry. Lots of doctors are prescribing anti-depressant readily and easily.
From an anthroposophical point of view the "I" culture of the west is part of the evolutionary process i.e, humanity evolved from living in tribes to livng in clans to living in extended families to living in the traditional nuclear family of today. At each stage the consciousness (soul) of the individual was firmly embedded in that of it's culture and identified fully with that of it's surroundings.

Now that many are turning away from the collective towards individualism, egoism and self-expression they become aware that they are alone, isolated and cannot relate anymore. This results in fear, panic and depression.

If someone can get through the "bottleneck" that is depression by whatever means they prefer, they usually come out the other side more spiritually advanced, more empathic and with a better understanding of life and with different priorities.

If enough people get through this process this will, in the future, result in a different kind of society to what we have today.

Last edited by Enaj; 07.12.2010 at 17:33.
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Old 07.12.2010, 16:08
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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I've never had any pharmaceutical anti-depressant, apart from MDMA with flashing lights and monotonous music, but it wasn't prescribed to me. That did wonders. Other than that, I've tried St. John's Wort when I felt like I needed something, though I'm not sure it did anything. Vitamins and rigorous exercises has pulled me through in the past.
LSD works wonders also..... (not that I've tried it unfortunately), but have seen the effects in various people I know who have..
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Old 07.12.2010, 16:25
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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LSD works wonders also..... (not that I've tried it unfortunately), but have seen the effects in various people I know who have..
There are many interesting peices of writing by well respected psychologists and scientists about the positive effects of LSD but one thing they all seem to agree on is that you should be mentally healthy to try it. I would most strongly urge people who are having any mental problems at all not to experiment with any of these kinds of substances!!!
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Old 07.12.2010, 17:31
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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There are many interesting peices of writing by well respected psychologists and scientists about the positive effects of LSD but one thing they all seem to agree on is that you should be mentally healthy to try it. I would most strongly urge people who are having any mental problems at all not to experiment with any of these kinds of substances!!!
There is (was) a psychiatrist in Solothurn who used LSD in conjunction with pyschotherapy....

(Maybe not for schizophrenia or bi-polar though)..
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Old 07.12.2010, 18:46
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Re: Depression Sufferers

A friend of mine is a psychiatrist from Cali, actually did his PhD in Zurich, specialized in Stanislav Grof and LSD in psychotherapy. It is a hot thing within the field, has been for a while. I would never advocate selfmedication, though. But to say LSD, psych illnesses and therapy don't go together is a nonsense.
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Old 07.12.2010, 19:27
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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A friend of mine is a psychiatrist from Cali, actually did his PhD in Zurich, specialized in Stanislav Grof and LSD in psychotherapy. It is a hot thing within the field, has been for a while. I would never advocate selfmedication, though. But to say LSD, psych illnesses and therapy don't go together is a nonsense.
Is there not a stack of evidence to show that psychotropic drugs exacerbate preexisting mental problems, and can also lead to the early on set of dementia / flash backs / problems determining reality?
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Old 07.12.2010, 19:28
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Re: Depression Sufferers

13 years ago I went through a difficult divorce with Wife Version 1.0
I coped by plugging into work, I would even go back to the Office after a meal at home!

When I finally got to bed, I would sit up and read books which justified my divorce like "Why Marriage always fails". I had a lot of aggression inside me.

How did I get out of it?

Witnessing Brutal Violence.

Thanks to the incompetence of the Greater Manchester Police, our match in 1998 against Leeds was not made an Early kick-off and all hell broke lose.

I loved it. I was scared, but I enjoyed it.
And I wasn't actually doing anything. Ahem.

I enjoyed being pushed and shoved aside by baton wielding Police who came on the scene a tad late. "Move out of the f...king way" etc. and when the bottles stopped, seeing a Leeds fan lying on the ground with the blood flowing, I felt no sympathy. I distinctly remember thinking "Serves you right for not getting in early"

Terrible.
But something CLICKED that day. Something was RELEASED.
I can't explain it.
But fact was, I felt better.

Next day, I told these events to a woman at work.
She looked at me with utter contempt and said
"You're sick"
I laughed and said "No, I'm happy, it was great!"

I ditched the Marriage Guidance books and within 3 months I had moved job and country.

It worked for me. It made me happy again.
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Old 07.12.2010, 19:37
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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13 years ago I went through a difficult divorce with Wife Version 1.0
I coped by plugging into work, I would even go back to the Office after a meal at home!

When I finally got to bed, I would sit up and read books which justified my divorce like "Why Marriage always fails". I had a lot of aggression inside me.

How did I get out of it?

Witnessing Brutal Violence.

Thanks to the incompetence of the Greater Manchester Police, our match in 1998 against Leeds was not made an Early kick-off and all hell broke lose.

I loved it. I was scared, but I enjoyed it.
And I wasn't actually doing anything. Ahem.

I enjoyed being pushed and shoved aside by baton wielding Police who came on the scene a tad late. "Move out of the f...king way" etc. and when the bottles stopped, seeing a Leeds fan lying on the ground with the blood flowing, I felt no sympathy. I distinctly remember thinking "Serves you right for not getting in early"

Terrible.
But something CLICKED that day. Something was RELEASED.
I can't explain it.
But fact was, I felt better.

Next day, I told these events to a woman at work.
She looked at me with utter contempt and said
"You're sick"
I laughed and said "No, I'm happy, it was great!"

I ditched the Marriage Guidance books and within 3 months I had moved job and country.

It worked for me. It made me happy again.
O..K.. So half of you lot are terrified to leave your house, and the other half of you are roaming the streets in a rampant blood lust...maybe you lot aren't so crazy...
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Old 07.12.2010, 20:13
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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Terrible.
But something CLICKED that day. Something was RELEASED.
I can't explain it.
But fact was, I felt better.

I've had the same thing and referred to it as adrenaline earlier. But it is probably more like survival instincts. I've seen this on a group level as well. In Los Angeles, where every feels like the day before, malaise sometimes sets in. I noticed that after an earthquake, an emergency or a big storm, people light up with a kind of glee. They find a sense of purpose in reacting to the situation, and there is a shared experience everybody is able to talk about. Its almost as if they come alive.

Last edited by Phos; 07.12.2010 at 23:12.
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Old 07.12.2010, 20:32
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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Is there not a stack of evidence to show that psychotropic drugs exacerbate preexisting mental problems, and can also lead to the early on set of dementia / flash backs / problems determining reality?
Absolutely, that's why I put that little line about LSD selfmedication. But it seems to work in a controlled environment, for specific pretty well defined cases, the spectrum seems to be widening. The research can only be done in some countries, though, hence my friend's stay in CH. I think science is reaching out wherever it can, I am not surprised, whatever can affect suffering.

Pot has been used for ages, hasn't it, does not surprise anyone anymore...

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I've had the same thing and referred to it as adrenaline earlier. But it is probably more like survival instincts. I've seen this on a group level as well. In Los Angeles, where every feels like the day before, malaise sometimes sets in. I noticed that after an earthquake, an emergency or a big storm, people light up with a kind of glee. They find a sense of purpose in reacting to the situation, and there is a shared experience everybody is able to talking about. Its almost as if they come alive.
And then you have the post traumatic stress syndrome, works both ways, doesn't it.. People have always reach out to extremes to make them feel alive, sex included, all sorts of risk, etc etc. The idea of zen makes me cringe, but sometimes I see the point..
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Old 07.12.2010, 20:38
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Terrible.
But something CLICKED that day. Something was RELEASED.
I can't explain it.
But fact was, I felt better.
Almost like shock therapy.
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