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  #101  
Old 08.12.2010, 14:03
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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I think the best is somewhere in the middle. You have to be able to do both - dream a little, fantasize, but then be able to figure out how to solve a problem. It's this balance which is so difficult to achieve in so many of us. I also think that you have to learn to let yourself feel. My psychiatrist in the US helped me realize that when I let myself feel - anger, frustration, sadness and not keep it inside. I was less likely to build up anxiety. It's worked too. And I learned that i need to judge/analyze my own feelings less and just feel them. It doesn't mean being completely selfish though, and not recognizing others feelings.

As for positivity out of depression/anxiety - well, it's given me much to think about, it's who I am, and it's given me research topics. I think it has helped me to be better at solving problems. Anyway, I can't go back and change what's already occurred so I might as well learn what I can from it, - but at the same time, try to develop resilience from it.

If any of that makes sense.
It does. I feel pain for those who hurt going through severe blues, sometimes I feel they are just unfairly hurt by how ill our lives are sometimes set to be by our culture, when you exclude personal resilience and stamina against depression, and lack or presence of self surviving strategies..etc. I do think we are wired to live happily differently, but overcoming this giant hurdle, or learning from others in time, makes one strong, doesn't it. I think that's the positive thing. Plus, one finds real friends, who stuck with him trough this. Admitting depression is a giant leap, too.

The idea of slightly skeptical mind is appealing to me, since happy go lucky minds seem wonderful to feed off, but somewhat impractical, illusions and all. I got very irritated by cultures where smile therapy is daily bread and logically worried people are constantly labeled as naysayers, even though they might be actually more educated or wise enough to see the consequences of stuff. That bit of CH culture is lovely, grumpy just like home.

I think depression is somewhat disguised anxiety and a loss of ability to deal with it. What Oldhand wrote made me think a lot..Changing routines and all. A lot better than shocks, I still remember my bro who had to administer them when he served rounds, how crushed he was and it turned him off clinical psy forever. Or when I worked in ER and shocks were so hard to do, eventhough without mental health issues being involved.

In terms of how accurately we think when we are down, me thinks being hungry/sleep deprived etc is enough to get one in a state of critical thinking, doesn't it..nobody needs a real depression, fo sho.
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  #102  
Old 08.12.2010, 14:57
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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LSD wouldn't work wonders at all on depression. It would be a horrendous experience for someone who was unhappy with themselves, I couldnt imagine anything worse.
You have to have the pyschotherapy first and then the physciatrist decides WHEN you are ready for the LSD
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  #103  
Old 08.12.2010, 15:54
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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You have to have the pyschotherapy first and then the physciatrist decides WHEN you are ready for the LSD
Well I pity the poor sod who takes this on. LSD goes to your inner soul, and if your not happy as a person then the experience would be terrifying. I couldnt possibly understand someone prescribing it.
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  #104  
Old 08.12.2010, 16:27
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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My current method for dealing with depression is that I disappear, I don't go out to see friends, I avoid social contact if possible, won't go to lectures, nothing. This used to be quite lonely but since the internet, you can be depressed and nobody notices because you're on Facebook all day, posting the next cute kitten thing you hunted down to try and distract yourself.

One thing that I feel is helpful when things are really bleak (like, I wish I wouldn't wake up bleak), is to remember I've been here before and it got better again.
Withdrawing from the world is what I do when I feel low. It's not clear whether this is a symptom or a way to cope though.

I use exactly the same technique to try and get through bleak times. Remember that you were there before. Actually I try and pre-plan for this when I'm happy and tell myself to store memories and feelings for when I am low in the future.
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  #105  
Old 08.12.2010, 16:33
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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  #106  
Old 08.12.2010, 16:43
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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I've never had any pharmaceutical anti-depressant, apart from MDMA with flashing lights and monotonous music, but it wasn't prescribed to me. That did wonders.
Actually this has been used in clinical trials, in Switzerland among other places, though without the flashing lights and repetitive beats. It's really rather good for increasing your sense of empathy and allowing you to talk openly.
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  #107  
Old 08.12.2010, 17:03
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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Actually this has been used in clinical trials, in Switzerland among other places, though without the flashing lights and repetitive beats. It's really rather good for increasing your sense of empathy and allowing you to talk openly.

There are many scientists that believe that long term use can cause depression, the 5ht receptors that get destroyed by it are believed to play a role in mood control
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  #108  
Old 08.12.2010, 17:15
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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There are many scientists that believe that long term use can cause depression, the 5ht receptors that get destroyed by it are believed to play a role in mood control
But equally there are alternative viewpoints. Long term depression from MDMA is in line with extreme excessive use I thought, in the same way that long term use of any drug (e.g. alchohol) will screw you up. The rabbits that end up with reduced serotonin and screwed up receptors have normally been given regular doses every day for a number of years, which to be fair is going to bugger up anyone.

I have also heard about MDMA for therapy and I have to say the idea of that seems reasonable, whereas the idea of LSD for therapy is absurd.
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Old 08.12.2010, 17:36
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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Actually this has been used in clinical trials, in Switzerland among other places, though without the flashing lights and repetitive beats. It's really rather good for increasing your sense of empathy and allowing you to talk openly.
The effects are quite temporary....

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There are many scientists that believe that long term use can cause depression, the 5ht receptors that get destroyed by it are believed to play a role in mood control
While the damage is permanent.

I've seen some people being the most loveable anyone can possibly be the night before, and becoming a moody monster the following day.

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I have also heard about MDMA for therapy and I have to say the idea of that seems reasonable, whereas the idea of LSD for therapy is absurd.
Exposure to a heightened sense of empathy and talking openly is enough to "inform" one that such a state of being exists. The idea of the therapy is to learn how to get there without any medicine.

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  #110  
Old 08.12.2010, 17:46
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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The effects are quite temporary....



While the damage is permanent.


I've seen some people being the most loveable anyone can possibly be the night before, and becoming a moody monster the following day.
Got any evidence that a single night out on MDMS permanently ruins your brain ? I know people who regularly take it and are as lovely as lambs the next day. Individuals may react differently but this is no different to any other experience in life (drinking, getting in a fight etc).

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Exposure to a heightened sense of empathy and talking openly is enough to "inform" one that such a state of being exists. The idea of the therapy is to learn how to get there without any medicine.
exactly, no one is suggesting it would be used long term, however it can be useful in a course of psychotherapy: http://scienceblog.com/36554/mdma-ec...esistant-ptsd/
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  #111  
Old 08.12.2010, 17:57
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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Got any evidence that a single night out on MDMS permanently ruins your brain ? I know people who regularly take it and are as lovely as lambs the next day. Individuals may react differently but this is no different to any other experience in life (drinking, getting in a fight etc).

exactly, no one is suggesting it would be used long term, however it can be useful in a course of psychotherapy: http://scienceblog.com/36554/mdma-ec...esistant-ptsd/

I've seen slides of the tissue damage from MDMA. Google "MDMA damage". I believe it is widely known. As for when it occurs and what frequency surely depends on the individual. One sign of the damage is that the dosage has to be increased to reach the same state as before.

I believe in therapy, it is used in conjunction with talking about painful topics. It allows the therapist and patient to broach subjects that were previously unmentionable for the patient.

Okay, I confess I didn't used it in therapy. Someone slipped me one once at a rave back in the 90s; and it just felt great to smile, hug strangers and dance. It certainly isn't something anyone should become dependent on.

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  #112  
Old 08.12.2010, 18:04
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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I've seen slides of the tissue damage from MDMA. Google "MDMA damage". I believe it is widely known. As for when it occurs and what frequency surely depends on the individual. One sign of the damage is that the dosage has to be increased to reach the same state as before.

I believe in therapy, it is used in conjunction with talking about painful topics. It allows the therapist and patient to broach subjects that were previously unmentionable for the patient.

Okay, I confess I didn't used it in therapy. Someone slipped me one once at a rave back in the 90s; and it just felt great to smile, hug strangers and dance. It certainly isn't something anyone should become dependent on.

Whats widely known is that people don't know the effects. Some reports have you turning into a vegetable from small usage, some reports say there is little effect when used moderately. Everyone agrees that repeated excessive use will cause you damage, like alchohol and the rest of them.

For the therapy bit we agree (I think).
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Old 08.12.2010, 18:09
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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Whats widely known is that people don't know the effects. Some reports have you turning into a vegetable from small usage, some reports say there is little effect when used moderately. Everyone agrees that repeated excessive use will cause you damage, like alchohol and the rest of them.

For the therapy bit we agree (I think).

There was a widely published report recently from the John Hopkins University on the permanent damage caused by MDMA. But I now see they retracted it because they were injecting it in monkeys. They re-ran the study with ingested MDMA and found different results.

One thing for sure, it blocks the the use of seratonin in receptor, and even releases even more seratonin into the system. High levels of seratonin can cause all kinds of emotional problems and even death. In effect, it messes with one's neurological system. So it isn't much of a solution to a problem. Only the temporary cognitive value is really of benefit.
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  #114  
Old 08.12.2010, 18:26
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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There was a widely published report recently from the John Hopkins University on the permanent damage caused by MDMA. But I now see they retracted it because they were injecting it in monkeys. They re-ran the study with ingested MDMA and found different results.

One thing for sure, it blocks the the use of seratonin in receptor, and even releases even more seratonin into the system. High levels of seratonin can cause all kinds of emotional problems and even death. In effect, it messes with one's neurological system. So it isn't much of a solution to a problem. Only the temporary cognitive value is really of benefit.
Which sums up exactly what I have said all along. Excessive use messes you up, and that it can be useful in therapy by providing a window where people can express items they previously couldnt leading to a potential long term benefit.

MDMA is not particularly dangerous when compared to other drugs that an individual can consume.
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Old 08.12.2010, 19:05
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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Which sums up exactly what I have said all along. Excessive use messes you up, and that it can be useful in therapy by providing a window where people can express items they previously couldnt leading to a potential long term benefit.

MDMA is not particularly dangerous when compared to other drugs that an individual can consume.

Right. The problem with taking it without professional supervision is that the individual typically would not know when it is excessive. At some point, it goes beyond "empathy" and into a frame of mind that is only concerned with one's mood. In otherwords, loss of "empathy".

Actually, I don't really think the drug actually provides empathy, as empathy is defined as sensitivity to others' feelings. Rather, the drug allows for better expression of one's emotions, therefore giving others the opportunity for others to be empathetic to the patient. The patient is often more concerned about their own mood and emotions than to the emotions of others.
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  #116  
Old 08.12.2010, 19:36
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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Actually, I don't really think the drug actually provides empathy, as empathy is defined as sensitivity to others' feelings.
It's fairly well documented that MDMA improves levels of empathy. You do end up more sensitive to other people's feelings. That's where the phrase 'loved up' came from.

As for danger, yes if you cane it 24/7 (as some rare unfortunate souls do) then it will damage you. For occasional recreational users (and indeed those who use it in therapy) it's not a danger - the UK panel who looked into the harm to self and society in an attempt to inform policy makers with evidence, placed MDMA very low on its scale, well below alcohol.

Not everyone who uses it, takes it in in a dance music setting. It's also used in pubs, at home with friends and in the bedroom. I'm certainly not recommending this as an instant treatment for depression and I'd probably try and steer someone who I knew was depressed away from it for a while. Nevertheless it can have a definite long term positive effect, in terms of opening some people up.
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Old 08.12.2010, 20:34
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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It's fairly well documented that MDMA improves levels of empathy. You do end up more sensitive to other people's feelings. That's where the phrase 'loved up' came from.
Empathy is defined as the ability to understand and enter into another person's situation, feelings and motive. MDMA allows the user to bring out their own and communicate it to others, thereby fostering empathy between people. But as for entering someone else's space, regular MDMA users inevitably turn out to be sweaty obnoxious jerks who will get in your face to get you to go into their space, with little regard for yours. That really isn't characteristic of empathy.
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  #118  
Old 08.12.2010, 21:17
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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Empathy is defined as the ability to understand and enter into another person's situation, feelings and motive. MDMA allows the user to bring out their own and communicate it to others, thereby fostering empathy between people. But as for entering someone else's space, regular MDMA users inevitably turn out to be sweaty obnoxious jerks who will get in your face to get you to go into their space, with little regard for yours. That really isn't characteristic of empathy.
I think it really depends how much you're taking. Yes, you can get completely wasted, where the serotonin flood will be pretty much just sensory pleasure, but at lower levels it very definitely invokes empathy. This is why it has been used in therapy and why it's sometimes used by couples to enhance communication.

Your example is a bit like saying that alcohol makes you violent, fall over and vomit. Yes it does. But at lower levels alcohol is also a nice social disinhibitor.
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  #119  
Old 08.12.2010, 22:08
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Re: Depression Sufferers

I'm wondering, if someone suffers from high levels of empathy, does this contradict the possibility to be afflicted with clinical depressions?
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  #120  
Old 08.12.2010, 22:24
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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True, but being an empath can sometimes be a hindrance to happiness - picking up on everyone else's feelings and troubles can make you exhausted.
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I'm wondering, if someone suffers from high levels of empathy, does this contradict the possibility to be afflicted with clinical depressions?
I don't think so. I made the point that former depression sufferers may be more empathic towards current sufferers but, as Leni pointed out, being empathic can in itself be pretty draining.

I guess that this not does answer the question as to whether naturally empathic people who have not suffered from depression previously are more or less likely to become so. A bit of a conundrum really ...
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