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  #161  
Old 10.12.2010, 11:30
Bertrand - Geneva
 
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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Bertrand, isn't the issue loneliness? Because of the loneliness, you get depressed, no? Therefore, you take medication for the depression?

But shouldn't you deal with the loneliness instead of taking pills for the depression? Seems to me that in such a case, a plan of action to deal with the loneliness is called for, rather than a box of pills.
this if a very effective question and loneliness is obviously linked.

But I had to deal first with some problems that put me in depression and social phobia. Kind of vicious circle.
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  #162  
Old 10.12.2010, 11:34
Focus
 
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Re: Depression Sufferers

On another list I am on there was a reference to the following book. (Actually I had a book from him that helped with my diabetes)

Depression-Free for Life: A Physician's All-Natural, 5-Step Plan_ by Gabriel Cousens, M.D.
http://www.amazon.com/Depression-Fre...5781897&sr=8-1
It's available (used) for about $4 including shipping.
"premise is that all depressions are different, having multiple causes…He proposes an individualized…program for modulating brain
neurochemistry…amino acids…essential fatty acids…diet…exercise"
A respected network chiropractor wrote: "This is the best book I have read on the topic of depression. Gabriel Cousens is brilliant, well-read, well-researched, thorough...This book completely changed my level of depression instantly when I found which nutrient I was missing in my diet. This is a must read!"
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  #163  
Old 10.12.2010, 11:41
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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this if a very effective question and loneliness is obviously linked.

But I had to deal first with some problems that put me in depression and social phobia. Kind of vicious circle.

I see. Something like the social phobia causes loneliness, which then causes the depression, and so on? Like a looped chain or something. Phobia implies there is also some fear involved.

Regarding the fear, one way of getting rid of fear is by going straight into it. There is a Buddhist proverb that goes something like, "the way out of hell is to walk right into the center of the fire of it."

As for the vicious circle, may you grow tired of it, imagine it as an object, put it in a box, and throw away the box. Stop coming up with reasons to keep it around.

I think you just need a strong dose of empathy, and to be touched. A strong encounter of this kind may just change your life. I recommend setting your endeavors on that.
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  #164  
Old 10.12.2010, 11:47
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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It will become more and more painful these next days until I can "crack in tears" and things will get better from there.
I am here too.

Just treading water. Well, I say water, it feels like treacle. I know that if I allow myself to sink to the bottom of the pool I will be able to push off the bottom with my feet and rise to the surface quicker but its SO incredibly difficult.

Anyway, thanks for starting this thread. Ive not read it all yet, but I will do. Best wishes Bertrand and whoever else is suffering.
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Old 10.12.2010, 11:53
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I am here too.

Well there you go.... Betrand... meet Ella. Ella.... meet Bertrand.

You two ought to go on a Skype date, then see how it goes from there. (nudge nudge) Sounds like a match made on EF.

Go ahead... exchange Skype accounts by PM.


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  #166  
Old 10.12.2010, 13:45
Focus
 
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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I see. Something like the social phobia causes loneliness, which then causes the depression, and so on? Like a looped chain or something. Phobia implies there is also some fear involved.

Regarding the fear, one way of getting rid of fear is by going straight into it. There is a Buddhist proverb that goes something like, "the way out of hell is to walk right into the center of the fire of it."

As for the vicious circle, may you grow tired of it, imagine it as an object, put it in a box, and throw away the box. Stop coming up with reasons to keep it around.

I think you just need a strong dose of empathy, and to be touched. A strong encounter of this kind may just change your life. I recommend setting your endeavors on that.
Therer is an old saying that the definition of insanity is the doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. Actually it is not too far off. But I do not think that it is inisanity. Research has shown that we do do things over and over again because we develope pathways in our brains. It is very difficult to change these pathways BUT they can be changed. They are not changed through force but by doing things differently repeactedly. This is called practice.

Much of what we do is automatic/unconscious. We do things with out thinking. Often we try to change things by force and when the change does not happen and our expectations are not met then we judge ourselves. It has nothing to do with with how intellogent we are nor how good we are. We learn how to respond. The point is that we can learn how to chnage chnage how we respond BUT it takes time and unforntunately many of us today are looking for the magic bullet and for the chnage to happen immediately. In rwealioty chnage takes time.

Fear is natural response. It is how we survive; self preservation. But sometimes we over react and have too much fear. We need to learn how to chnage this response and then practice. But once again it takes time.

You need to stop judging yourself. We all need to stop judging ourselevs and begin accepting ourselevs. Stop trying to be perfectl
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  #167  
Old 10.12.2010, 16:20
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Therer is an old saying that the definition of insanity is the doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. Actually it is not too far off. But I do not think that it is inisanity. Research has shown that we do do things over and over again because we develope pathways in our brains. It is very difficult to change these pathways BUT they can be changed. They are not changed through force but by doing things differently repeactedly. This is called practice.

Much of what we do is automatic/unconscious. We do things with out thinking. Often we try to change things by force and when the change does not happen and our expectations are not met then we judge ourselves. It has nothing to do with with how intellogent we are nor how good we are. We learn how to respond. The point is that we can learn how to chnage chnage how we respond BUT it takes time and unforntunately many of us today are looking for the magic bullet and for the chnage to happen immediately. In rwealioty chnage takes time.

Fear is natural response. It is how we survive; self preservation. But sometimes we over react and have too much fear. We need to learn how to chnage this response and then practice. But once again it takes time.

You need to stop judging yourself. We all need to stop judging ourselevs and begin accepting ourselevs. Stop trying to be perfectl

Introspection is a valuable process. It allows us to take stock of ourselves, and make positive changes in our lives. But the problem with trying to change is that it typically does not work if the change is for its own sake. This is where a quote from Einstein applies:

"You cannot solve a problem from the same consciousness that created it. You must learn to see the world anew."

Trying to change by sheer determination rarely works on its own. When people try this, they experience a spring-back effect that drives them deeper into a pattern than where they were before. An example is an over-eater. The worse attempt for an over-eater would be to try not to eat. They can hold out for half a day, but when they give in to the urge, they may even eat more than they would have.

Change takes effect when there is a new perspective that is more powerful than the old perspective. When the habits of the old perspective no longer make sense in the new perspective, the mind learns to drop the old habits.

In this sense, it is more effective to cultivate a new perspective, rather than trying to force one's behavior and actions through the old perspective. Because you will only fail, hate yourself for failing, and even punish yourself for failing.
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  #168  
Old 10.12.2010, 16:41
Focus
 
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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Introspection is a valuable process. It allows us to take stock of ourselves, and make positive changes in our lives. But the problem with trying to change is that it typically does not work if the change is for its own sake. This is where a quote from Einstein applies:

"You cannot solve a problem from the same consciousness that created it. You must learn to see the world anew."

Trying to change by sheer determination rarely works on its own. When people try this, they experience a spring-back effect that drives them deeper into a pattern than where they were before. An example is an over-eater. The worse attempt for an over-eater would be to try not to eat. They can hold out for half a day, but when they give in to the urge, they may even eat more than they would have.

Change takes effect when there is a new perspective that is more powerful than the old perspective. When the habits of the old perspective no longer make sense in the new perspective, the mind learns to drop the old habits.

In this sense, it is more effective to cultivate a new perspective, rather than trying to force one's behavior and actions through the old perspective. Because you will only fail, hate yourself for failing, and even punish yourself for failing.
Excellent. Yes introspection or reflection is a wonderful process.Yes, it is important to take stock of oursleves but unfortunately many of us have a very negative perspectives of oursleves and are unable to make progress as a result. We need to be able to view oursleves objectively without judgement. To have compassion for oursleves and understand oursleves. You are okay where you are and who you are. I am sure it has been hard for you but you have survived and will surivive because you have had the xcourage to talk about your situation.

The hardest part is to let go of this negative perpsective we have of oursleves or our situations. We often become stuck in this negative state of mind. You need to see that you are okay who you are. So give yourslelf a hug. Thanks for sharing
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Old 10.12.2010, 17:05
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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Excellent. Yes introspection or reflection is a wonderful process.Yes, it is important to take stock of oursleves but unfortunately many of us have a very negative perspectives of oursleves and are unable to make progress as a result. We need to be able to view oursleves objectively without judgement. To have compassion for oursleves and understand oursleves. You are okay where you are and who you are. I am sure it has been hard for you but you have survived and will surivive because you have had the xcourage to talk about your situation.

The hardest part is to let go of this negative perpsective we have of oursleves or our situations. We often become stuck in this negative state of mind. You need to see that you are okay who you are. So give yourslelf a hug. Thanks for sharing

Haha.. you talking to me?

What if I happen to be an axe murderer, am I still okay? What if I have habits that harm me and others, am I still okay? Perhaps the depression is necessary to turn around someone's life. There are plenty of evil people who should rightfully be depressed. Should they still give themselves a hug?
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  #170  
Old 10.12.2010, 17:10
Bertrand - Geneva
 
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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Well there you go.... Bertrand... meet Ella. Ella.... meet Bertrand.

You two ought to go on a Skype date, then see how it goes from there. (nudge nudge) Sounds like a match made on EF.

Go ahead... exchange Skype accounts by PM.


Haha, now, I'm smiling

(and it's already on my profile)
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  #171  
Old 10.12.2010, 17:15
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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Haha.. you talking to me?

What if I happen to be an axe murderer, am I still okay? What if I have habits that harm me and others, am I still okay? Perhaps the depression is necessary to turn around someone's life. There are plenty of evil people who should rightfully be depressed. Should they still give themselves a hug?
No I was not talking to you and after I sent it I thought that you would probably take it that way. Sorry about that.

Look we are all human. I do not know any one who does not have some problems or issues. Some more and some less than others. But you are still human. Just because someone acts in way that I disapprove of does not mean that they are any less human than I am. Rich, poor or what ever, we are human. If I see someone who is behaving poorly on the train or tram I am able not to judge but understand that maybe this guy has some problems.

Most people behave in a negative because they just do niot feel good about themselevs. They may act arrogant but usually underneath is someone who is just not happy with themselevs.

If I have habits that threaten my survival or others then I either work on learning how to cope/ survive/respond better or I suffer the repercussions.
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  #172  
Old 10.12.2010, 17:17
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Haha, now, I'm smiling

(and it's already on my profile)

Right on man!

Seriously, there are so many people out there who are lonely and depressed. People should reach out more. And I hope you two really did get in contact.

Now, just keep keep moving and try not to look down.
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  #173  
Old 10.12.2010, 19:29
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Re: Depression Sufferers

@ Focus. I think what has upset some people is the impression that some of your posts give. They seem to imply that you know best and have a miracle cure.

What works for one person very effectively may not work for another. Depression is a very complex condition.

Medication can be the answer for some, and not for others. I would not recommend anyone to stop taking medication and start alternative treatment without dicussing with their doctor/health professional.

I know people who have got through depression with medication, others with counselling, others with NLP etc.
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  #174  
Old 10.12.2010, 22:14
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@ Focus. I think what has upset some people is the impression that some of your posts give. They seem to imply that you know best and have a miracle cure.

What works for one person very effectively may not work for another. Depression is a very complex condition.

Medication can be the answer for some, and not for others. I would not recommend anyone to stop taking medication and start alternative treatment without dicussing with their doctor/health professional.

I know people who have got through depression with medication, others with counselling, others with NLP etc.
l am very passionate about the subject. I give an opinion. I do not give it aggressively. I do not make snide or cutting remarks. Which has been a comon practice by many on this list.

What I do, is give an opinion that may oppose that of a few. I observe a mobbing of those who do so. I will continue to give my opinion because people have the right to know that there are alternatives to the negative side effects of medications.

I have never implied that it is a miracle cure. It is a logical and scientific training that has helped many people h. I have never used the word cure here or any where.

I have seen people talk about medication as if "it" is miracle cure. I have read messages recommending certain medications. There is no discussion about side effects and the dangers of the use of medication. Do not people have the right to be aware of this information or is this a site that stifles information.

In topics such as alcohol consumption, drugs etc I have given an opposing view and I have been critisized just as you are doing now. It seems that there are many on this who are free to give their opinions but when some one else gives an opposing opinion they are critisized and mobbed. Reminds me recent situations where there are efforts to silence people with opposing opinions.

In regard to stopping a medication I have supported the idea of a gradual withdrawal.

What I do suggest is that people question their medical professionals because not all professionals have their interest at heart.

I am in support of a holitistic approach. People do need to become aware of the foods they consume. There are vitamins that can be consumed. Meditation, joga, exeercise etc all excellent approaches.
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  #175  
Old 10.12.2010, 23:26
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Re: Depression Sufferers

Too many good posts here to quote a single one. I hope the OP has found all the shared experience helpful. Sometimes, to know you're not the only one is enough. Thing is, the causes are different, and the symptoms different.

I would say to the OP (sorry, my appalling memory is a source of constant shame) that you are on the right track, you've asked for help. The drugs aren't an instant fix, nor are they a long term solution, but if they make you feel well enough to start rebuilding for yourself, that's good. Go with your gut instinct. If you don't feel like your doc is helping, or the drugs don't agree with you, question it. But give them both a chance, it's not an overnight thing. CBT can be tremendously helpful, but sometimes it's not, depends on the person and situation. Anxiety and depression are quite different states and as someone's pointed out, feeling depressed is not the same as depression.

See I know what I need to do to make myself feel better, but in the grip of depression I just can't do it - yes, exercise, eating well, staying off the booze, getting out and seeing people, helping others, writing things down, doing something you enjoy, giving yourself one small, achievable goal each day - these will all make you feel better, but sometimes you just can't even get that far. Various treatments, and the support from friends and family, if you're lucky enough to have them, will help you, but in the end you will bring yourself out of it - but don't panic or put pressure on yourself, you need the help first before you can do that.

There are three useful quotes that have stuck with me over the years:

"the unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates I think
"be kind to yourself" - a psychotherapist I saw
"LET IT GO!!!" - shouted at me frequently by a friend, claims he's a Buddhist (smoking, surfing, hip hop kind of Buddhist )

I keep meaning to write these in big letters on my living room wall, especially the last two.

Thing is, what you'll get from this thread is a lot of different experiences and advice (very generously shared), and, as said dude-friend would also say, you should take that which is useful and leave that which is not.

Just remember, you're not alone, you will come out of it again, and be kind to yourself.

Update: I started writing this three days ago, then my laptop died just as I was about to press submit and the following morning I left early on a work trip. Just got back, opened up the laptop and it's still here, so apols if it doesn't make sense in context of posts since Weds.
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  #176  
Old 11.12.2010, 00:26
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I have never implied that it is a miracle cure. It is a logical and scientific training that has helped many people h. I have never used the word cure here or any where.
I think it is because you have tried to sell your bio-feedback service on other threads. So regular posters are wary you are sneaking bio-feedback marketing here as well.



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"be kind to yourself" - a psychotherapist I saw
"LET IT GO!!!" - shouted at me frequently by a friend, claims he's a Buddhist (smoking, surfing, hip hop kind of Buddhist )
I like these two statements.
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  #177  
Old 11.12.2010, 00:59
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Re: Depression Sufferers

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l am very passionate about the subject. I give an opinion. I do not give it aggressively. I do not make snide or cutting remarks. Which has been a comon practice by many on this list.

What I do, is give an opinion that may oppose that of a few. I observe a mobbing of those who do so. I will continue to give my opinion because people have the right to know that there are alternatives to the negative side effects of medications.

I have never implied that it is a miracle cure. It is a logical and scientific training that has helped many people h. I have never used the word cure here or any where.

I have seen people talk about medication as if "it" is miracle cure. I have read messages recommending certain medications. There is no discussion about side effects and the dangers of the use of medication. Do not people have the right to be aware of this information or is this a site that stifles information.

In topics such as alcohol consumption, drugs etc I have given an opposing view and I have been critisized just as you are doing now. It seems that there are many on this who are free to give their opinions but when some one else gives an opposing opinion they are critisized and mobbed. Reminds me recent situations where there are efforts to silence people with opposing opinions.

In regard to stopping a medication I have supported the idea of a gradual withdrawal.

What I do suggest is that people question their medical professionals because not all professionals have their interest at heart.

I am in support of a holitistic approach. People do need to become aware of the foods they consume. There are vitamins that can be consumed. Meditation, joga, exeercise etc all excellent approaches.
I was not questioning, or critisizing, your opinion of the methods that you advocate. I was merely pointing out that it is not necessarily the best way for everyone. If depression, or any other condition, can be cured without medication that is to be welcomed. I agree that a holistic approach is generally going to be beneficial. Whatever the causes of depression, proper diet and exercise are almost certain to help the condition.

Personally, I try to avoid any medications but there are times when I rely on the judgement of medical professionals that they are the right approach. Whilst the mind is a powerful thing and can overcome all sorts of things, I would exercise caution in questioning the professionals, particularly by someone in a vulnerable state such as depression. I believe that even a gradual withrawal from medication should be carried out under medical supervision, or with the knowledge of the original doctor.
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  #178  
Old 11.12.2010, 09:04
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Re: Depression Sufferers

I like this site a lot....

http://www.depression.oldguy.us/

Good advice, good science and some good things to do to combat depression, useful advice on drugs and on side effects.

I consider severe depression and anxiety to be mental illnesses. I just think that I'm more sensitive to certain stimuli that predispose me to have anxiety and occasionally depression. My reactions to certain stimuli or environments might be more severe than yours - sort of like an allergic reaction, whereas another person might not even notice. (And my depression usually resolves on its own, anxiety does not without some work)But I don't think that I have a bad attitude, don't love myself, or whatever else - For me, in some cases, it's not going to get better without some medical intervention.

I am predisposed to anxiety because of the way my brain works. And my brain works differently than yours might, but that's ok. And from what I know about biochemistry (it's been a long time), it's all about those amino acids rolling around inside. Hence, it's a different pattern of activation, and yes, brain chemistry.

I have had a really difficult time finding the appropriate drug combinations. I am well aware of side effects, as are most of the people who take these meds. Because GP's are increasingly in the business of diagnosing depression and prescribing meds, lots of meds are created to have convenient dosages - one size fits all. Except that doesn't always work. So I prefer to be followed by a psychiatrist for meds, and I preferred to take something that had a wide range of dosages. And yes, I did have side effects - but sometimes the overall effect outweighs the side effects. And you have to see if the side effects are lasting or temporary. Mine were temporary.

If you can feel better by going out and meeting people, if you have the concentration to be introspective and analytical, if you can identify harmful attitudes and change them, then great. But if you can't, don't blame yourself and don't think that you're weak, unstable, unbalanced. It may be that you need other ways to feel better - and yes, it could be vitamins, exercise or fish oil. It might also be that you need talk therapy, meditation, and possibly even medication.

That's all I have to say on the topic.
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Old 11.12.2010, 10:14
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Re: Depression Sufferers

First of all let me say that this is a very serious subject. To all of you who had depression and got help congratulations. This first step is usually the most difficult one.

For the sake of discussion though. Do you think that there are people that actually like being depressed? That for them this is a normal way of life and like feeling that way? Not likely i agree but maybe...

Also after reading this post:

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A couple of years ago I met a couple of woman from Africa who told me that they were not aware of depression until they came to Europe. We in the Western world have beliefs of what we should be or have to have (material) to be happy or okay. If we do not meet those expectations then we become low.
If we had a choice of being depressed and eventually not surviving in this world and kicking ourselves and getting better just to live another day what you would think could happen? Will the survival instict kick in?
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Old 11.12.2010, 10:41
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For the sake of discussion though. Do you think that there are people that actually like being depressed? That for them this is a normal way of life and like feeling that way? Not likely i agree but maybe...
Melancholy, yes, I'm sure there are people who get some kind of enjoyment from it. It can help one to think, to consider one's life, to ruminate upon the fact that it is better to feel pain than to feel nothing at all. Melancholy has informed art, poetry and music, and can be, on balance, a very positive experience.

Quote:
No, no, go not to Lethe, neither twist
Wolf's-bane, tight-rooted, for its poisonous wine;
Nor suffer thy pale forehead to be kiss'd
By nightshade, ruby grape of Proserpine;
Make not your rosary of yew-berries,
Nor let the beetle, nor the death-moth be
Your mournful Psyche, nor the downy owl
A partner in your sorrow's mysteries;
For shade to shade will come too drowsily,
And drown the wakeful anguish of the soul.

But when the melancholy fit shall fall
Sudden from heaven like a weeping cloud,
That fosters the droop-headed flowers all,
And hides the green hill in an April shroud;
Then glut thy sorrow on a morning rose,
Or on the rainbow of the salt sand-wave,
Or on the wealth of globed peonies;
Or if thy mistress some rich anger shows,
Emprison her soft hand, and let her rave,
And feed deep, deep upon her peerless eyes.

She dwells with Beauty - Beauty that must die;
And Joy, whose hand is ever at his lips
Bidding adieu; and aching Pleasure nigh,
Turning to poison while the bee-mouth sips:
Ay, in the very temple of Delight
Veil'd Melancholy has her sovran shrine,
Though seen of none save him whose strenuous tongue
Can burst Joy's grape against his palate fine;
His soul shall taste the sadness of her might,
And be among her cloudy trophies hung.
Depression, on the other hand, is more like being dead than being in pain. Or, rather, it is like being dead and in pain at the same time.

I cannot possibly imagine how anyone can find anything positive, fulfilling or enjoyable about depression. It is, quite simply, horrible.
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